Relational Intelligence as Your Human Advantage in the AI Age with Sarah Stone McDevitt

Sarah Stone McDevitt === [00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey, folks, and welcome back to the show. My name is Gerry Scullion, and I'm a human-centered service design [00:00:05] practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland. Today's guest is Sarah Stone McDevitt, and [00:00:10] I'll give you the caveat up front, Sarah and I know each other socially. We live in the same part of [00:00:15] Dublin, and usually when somebody tells me that they've written a book and they'd like to send me a copy, I do the polite [00:00:20] thing and say, "Brilliant, yeah, lovely." [00:00:21] Gerry Scullion: But this one is quite different. I actually read it. The book [00:00:25] is called The Round Table, and it's about relational intelligence and how it becomes your human [00:00:30] advantage in the AI age. Now, Sarah started out wanting to be a documentary maker and [00:00:35] ended up in the world of SaaS ecosystems, which she'll tell you herself was not the dream.[00:00:40] [00:00:40] Gerry Scullion: She's dyslexic, phonetic dyslexia specifically, and she wrote this book by talking [00:00:45] into a voice memo on her phone, 'cause sitting down to type it would've taken the guts of [00:00:50] seven years. The title comes from the back of the classroom. The round table was [00:00:55] where kids who couldn't read too good got parked, and while the A students sat up the front at the [00:01:00] sharp triangle tables learning facts and formulas and repeatable tasks. [00:01:04] Gerry Scullion: Have a think about [00:01:05] who's very good at facts, formulas, and repeatable tasks now. Now, before we jump in, there's three [00:01:10] key takeaways to listen out for. First, we may have been measuring human value all [00:01:15] wrong from the very start. In school, you were rewarded for memorizing. At work, you're rewarded for [00:01:20] efficiency, speed, and volume, and that's what shows up in your performance review. [00:01:24] Gerry Scullion: [00:01:25] Those are precisely the things that machines are good at now, and Sarah's question is, what [00:01:30] happens to the identity of the human, the person whose entire brand was being the [00:01:35] technical one, when the technical bits get automated? And her answer is that the kids down the back, the [00:01:40] ones reading the room and having the craic, as we say in Ireland, and learning how to talk to each other, are [00:01:45] quietly building the thing that's about to matter most. [00:01:49] Gerry Scullion: Second of [00:01:50] all, relationships compound through inefficient practices. That's the [00:01:55] line I keep coming back to. Talking to people for no reason, sending someone an article [00:02:00] because you thought of them, with nothing attached to it other than you just care about them. [00:02:05] Closing the laptop and putting the phone off the table, sitting with someone's story instead of waiting [00:02:10] for your turn to tell a better one. [00:02:11] Gerry Scullion: None of that is efficient, and all of that is infrastructure [00:02:15] that your working life is actually running on. And a third, it's not humans [00:02:20] versus AI, it's AI-empowered humans against other humans. Sarah [00:02:25] is very clear that showing up, going well, uh, I've got [00:02:30] humanity and the machine hasn't, is not a strategy. [00:02:32] Gerry Scullion: The differentiator is your lived [00:02:35] experience, the thing that makes you unpredictable, the reason you and I would solve the [00:02:40] same problem in two completely different ways. Pattern recognition can't do that, because [00:02:45] pattern recognition needs a pattern, and we aren't one. We also get [00:02:50] into empathetic structuring, which is Sarah's argument that we've leaned into so far into empathy [00:02:55] in recent years, and we've quietly dropped accountability. [00:02:58] Gerry Scullion: And why care [00:03:00] about requirements when they don't actually serve anybody? One thing before we [00:03:05] start, I'm doing something that I don't normally do. I'm running a competition, and I'm buying a copy of the book for [00:03:10] myself from Sarah, and I'm getting Sarah to sign it and I'm posting it out to you, going to the letterbox and [00:03:15] posting it out. [00:03:15] Gerry Scullion: Not buying it through Mr. Bezos, buying it out of my own hand, my own money, and [00:03:20] there'll be a link in the show notes to enter in the competition. Right, let's get into it. This is my [00:03:25] conversation with Sarah Stone MacDevitt. I know you're gonna enjoy it. Enjoy.[00:03:30] [00:03:35] [00:03:38] Gerry Scullion: Sarah Stone [00:03:40] McDevitt, I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. Very warm welcome. Um, we're [00:03:45] both in the similar area in Dublin, and huge caveat up front, uh, we do know each [00:03:50] other socially. Um, and usually when people say to me, "I've written a [00:03:55] book," and they wanna give me a book like this one, doo, doo, doo, [00:04:00] doo, doo, I usually kind of go, "Brilliant, yeah, yeah." [00:04:02] Gerry Scullion: But this is a bit of a different book, um, [00:04:05] which we're gonna come to now in a minute. Sarah Stone McDevitt, for anyone who [00:04:10] doesn't know you, maybe we'll start off, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and what you do. [00:04:15] [00:04:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Well, thanks, Gerry, first of all, for having me on the, on the pod. [00:04:20] Um, a joy to be here with you. [00:04:22] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. Um, so, uh, [00:04:25] where am I from? Well, you know, without giving the full d- uh, my full origin story, um, I am [00:04:30] originally from Sligo. Very proud, uh, originally from Sligo. [00:04:35] And, um- Home of Westlife, W.B. Yeats- Yeah. Oh, yeah, home of Westlife, W.B. Yeats before that. Um, it was a bit, [00:04:40] took us a while to get another hit. Yeah. [00:04:42] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and yeah, [00:04:45] I, um, well, you know, I've spent the last couple of years, I suppose the, the funny [00:04:50] thing is I started out with a dream of being a documentary radio maker. Did you know that, Gerry? Did you know that about [00:04:55] me? Um, and life took me in the direction of working in [00:05:00] advertising and media and eventually tech, and so I work in the SaaS world today, [00:05:05] um, in ecosystems. [00:05:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And you must have pinched yourself when you reached that pinnacle of working in [00:05:10] SaaS, um, after, you know, your dreams of being a radio documentary maker. You must have [00:05:15] went, "Well, actually I was so wrong. Here I am, I find myself in the wonderful world of tech." [00:05:20] The wonderful world of AI, which, um, your book, which is aptly [00:05:25] named The Roundtable: How Relational Intelligence Will Become Your Human Advantage [00:05:30] in the AI Age- Tell us how you came up with the book, [00:05:35] and what's the story, and where you got from, where you, where you came from, uh, to get to this point.[00:05:40] [00:05:40] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. So what, uh, I will tell you the, the way this started is I get asked to talk about [00:05:45] AI a lot, right, in a professional capacity. And, uh, I was asked by someone organizing an event [00:05:50] would I speak about AI, and I said, "No." I said, "Can I talk about something else?" [00:05:55] Um, and they were like, "Well, what are you gonna talk about?" [00:05:57] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I said, "I, I don't know." Um, [00:06:00] but what I do know is that there's a lot of conversation around what AI is gonna change [00:06:05] about the way we work, and, you know, even parents are having conversations about, you know, what does my [00:06:10] child need to be good at in the future. So I started to kind of, I suppose, ruminate on that a [00:06:15] bit, um, and was just observing what I think will still [00:06:20] be true and be important for humans to have in the future. [00:06:23] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And so I, [00:06:25] I did this presentation. And I remember a friend of mine that I had run it by was [00:06:30] like, "Yeah. I mean, sure." Um, and I [00:06:35] presented at this event, and the audience had, uh, this really positive [00:06:40] response to it. They were just like... Uh, I, I suppose the, the response I got was, and, and what's [00:06:45] in the book is, I'm trying to make something that's intangible tangible by giving [00:06:50] people a direction to go in as to what will be the thing about humans that will be, um, [00:06:55] most successful. [00:06:56] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And so I remember we went for dinner that night and, and [00:07:00] she said, uh, "Wow. Who knew," right? She just was like, "People were, were really connected [00:07:05] with it." And so from there, I ended up doing a TEDx talk in Dublin. [00:07:10] Um, uh, and, and during all of this, every time I spoke, people said, y- [00:07:15] you know, "Where can I find out more information?" [00:07:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Like, "Is there a book on this?" And I was like, "No. There's, there's no [00:07:20] book." And I think it was just what ha- the reason the book came to be is that [00:07:25] people kept saying to me, "Where can I learn more about this?" And that, I think, was the push for me to go, "Okay, [00:07:30] maybe I should put some of this down on paper, um, and share a bit more of, of, of my [00:07:35] point of view on it." [00:07:36] Gerry Scullion: So, like, the, the tangent to all of this [00:07:40] is, you know, you're dyslexic, the background to this, and you've used AI [00:07:45] to help you write the book on relational, and I know every other podcaster out there has asked you [00:07:50] probably the same question, but, um, what was the experience like [00:07:55] of writing the book, and what did you gain from using AI, and what do you think you [00:08:00] lost? [00:08:00] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah Uh, so the, the, uh, so maybe I'll explain the type of [00:08:05] dyslexia I have first. Um- That's probably ... so the type I have is phonetic [00:08:10] dyslexia, which essentially means that I have trouble with converting sounds into [00:08:15] letters on the page. So the idea of me sitting down to type a book, um, [00:08:20] it would've been possible, but it probably would've taken me the next seven years. [00:08:23] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and I know, like, [00:08:25] technology's all around us, but you know, when I was working, and even in school and in [00:08:30] college, the running joke was every day with McDevitt was a spelling test because I would say [00:08:35] when I was trying to come up with a word- ... I'd be like, "Give me a, what was the word start with?" [00:08:40] Um, and then they'd tell me the letter, and then I'd, I could kind of, I could kinda go from there. [00:08:43] Sarah Stone McDevitt: But I'd real block just by [00:08:45] the letter. [00:08:45] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:08:46] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So with AI, you know, AI has completely revolutionized my [00:08:50] life. Um, you know, even if it's, you know, um, more basic forms like when [00:08:55] you can, you're using your WhatsApp and you can use a voice note or, you know, you can talk [00:09:00] into your text and it tells you what the word is, um, that has kinda changed my life [00:09:05] completely. [00:09:05] Sarah Stone McDevitt: With the, the book side of things, as I was pondering, you know, how would I possibly [00:09:10] write a book, like, that's ridiculous, um, I started [00:09:15] to capture my ideas on my voice memo note taker on my [00:09:20] phone. Mm-hmm. Um, and I discovered that it had, it [00:09:25] translated the sound into a, into script. And I was like, "Oh, oh." [00:09:30] I was like, "This is quite interesting." [00:09:32] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So, um, some would say maybe like a [00:09:35] crazy person, I just was talking to myself, and I used the memo [00:09:40] to capture everything I was saying that then became word. [00:09:45] Um, and I was able to then transfer that into a, you know, an actual, um, [00:09:50] document. Um, and it was one of the interesting things actually when I started to work with my developmental editor [00:09:55] she said to me, "Hmm, everything's in the spoken word. [00:09:58] Sarah Stone McDevitt: We're gonna have to change [00:10:00] that into the written word." And that was one of the challenges of, I, I think for her, [00:10:05] was to change what I was saying into something that was a book as opposed [00:10:10] to a, um- [00:10:11] Gerry Scullion: Oh, [00:10:11] Sarah Stone McDevitt: okay ... kind of audio telling a story, if you know what I mean. [00:10:14] Gerry Scullion: [00:10:15] Yeah. There was a piece in the book, um, that I remember [00:10:20] reflecting on myself kind of going, "Yeah, this, this kind of, this brings up memories [00:10:25] for me," and that was in the early 2000s. [00:10:27] Gerry Scullion: Um, you call it the di- the [00:10:30] disconnection zone where there was this kind of shift when the internet came in, um, [00:10:35] where suddenly we moved away from receiving communication from businesses [00:10:40] through post into email, and payments were expected quicker. [00:10:45] As opposed to 28 days, they were down to seven days. Things like that really, um, [00:10:50] started to g- get a little bit more, if you want, hot- Mm-hmm [00:10:52] Gerry Scullion: if you want, for, you know, for [00:10:55] humans and, and consumers out there. Are we in the same thing at the moment [00:11:00] where we're in this melting, kind of boiling pot, and the water's just getting hotter and [00:11:05] hotter? Um, without asking a too much of a loaded question, [00:11:10] what's behind all of this? What, what, what are we in a hurry for?[00:11:15] [00:11:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Uh, that's a great question, Gerry. What are we in a hurry for? [00:11:20] Unfortunately, I think in the last couple of years, I mean, I am a [00:11:25] Gen X-er, right? So obviously- [00:11:27] Gerry Scullion: You're super cool. [00:11:28] Sarah Stone McDevitt: That's all I'm gonna hear ... super cool, [00:11:30] um- You're not bothering with enough money today ... is the [00:11:32] Gerry Scullion: first thing [00:11:32] Sarah Stone McDevitt: to say. Yeah, um- Yeah ... uh, but y- but you and I are, like, [00:11:35] belong to a similar generation, so we had to wait for the ad breaks. [00:11:38] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And when we left the house, [00:11:40] um, I do remember Christmas Eve mass being a particular point of contention, uh, [00:11:45] where you would miss whatever telly was on the BBC because you didn't, you couldn't possibly record it. [00:11:50] Um- Yeah ... and so, like, patience was something that we had, and a willingness to let [00:11:55] things go. [00:11:55] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Like, I think actually as humans, we were able to, like, f- forgive and forget a bit [00:12:00] more. Um- Yeah ... mostly 'cause things weren't on constantly being recorded and captured for all [00:12:05] eternity. Um, I think we were, we're, one, we have an issue with patience now. [00:12:10] I mean, our children have no patience. Everything needs to be immediate. [00:12:14] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, [00:12:15] and patience is required, I think, for creativity [00:12:20] as well. Like, I mean, you see it often in many of the arts, like, it requires patience. [00:12:25] But in that patience and that re-review, things are better. Whereas I [00:12:30] think- Yeah ... when we think about even today with people vibe coding the hell out of things or people [00:12:35] building just for the sake of it because they can, we're, we're entering a world where there's gonna be an awful [00:12:40] lot of crap in the world, basically, that has no cohesion. [00:12:43] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, [00:12:45] and I also think that, um, that i- i- [00:12:50] we're, we're, our, our mistakes are forever captured in whatever capacity, whether they're professional or [00:12:55] personal. Um, we don't have really, like, that ability to just, we made a mistake, learn from [00:13:00] it and move on. Like, things tend to live with us forever, and I think [00:13:05] all of those things combined, like, we're reaching a boiling point [00:13:10] where people themselves are gonna start imploding on themselves, right? [00:13:14] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:13:15] And AI is probably, like, adding another layer on top of that, of, of [00:13:20] speed, where things don't really matter anymore 'cause they can be so [00:13:25] recycled and passed over so quickly. I don't know that there's s- people are building [00:13:30] things that are truly great anymore. Like, some people are, of course, but I think, like, the speed takes [00:13:35] away something in the craft. [00:13:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So, so that speed is [00:13:40] something that I'm really interested in. Like, are we- You know, when we use [00:13:45] AI, you were saying there that it helps you with your communication, helps you with, you know, the, the written [00:13:50] word and, and stuff. But in the professional capacity, this constant [00:13:55] urge to get stuff done and be productive and to be seen to be d- being, [00:14:00] to be productive, you know, w- what is behind this, and what can we do to [00:14:05] kind of release that pressure valve a little bit? [00:14:07] Gerry Scullion: Because if we know that, and a lot of people [00:14:10] listen to this podcast know that the importance of taking a breath and taking a step back and [00:14:15] reflect and stuff, how do we actually nudge our organizations forward to [00:14:20] be a little bit more reflective- Mm-hmm ... and more compassionate towards the people that are working in [00:14:25] there, um, as opposed to just saying, "Let AI do it. [00:14:27] Gerry Scullion: Let AI do it"? [00:14:28] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Mm. [00:14:30] Well, I think, I think, like, we're talking about something as well that's very in the moment right now, [00:14:35] right? Mm-hmm. Because there's panic amongst many people. Um, and [00:14:40] some of the volume of communication and volume of work is being caused by this [00:14:45] human need to prove that we have value, and that the work that we're doing has [00:14:50] value. [00:14:50] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and it is a kind of case of let's throw as much mud at the wall to see how much of it sticks, [00:14:55] right? Whether the person on the receiving end of it is actually viewing it as going, [00:15:00] "Wow, I'm so glad that you pumped out, like, 150 bits of rubbish today, because at least I [00:15:05] saw you were busy," um, I think is something that we're going to realize in the, [00:15:10] I think in the relatively short-term future. [00:15:12] Sarah Stone McDevitt: People will be like, "Mm, I, I [00:15:15] get that you're pumping out a lot of volume here, but it's not particularly useful." I also think that, um- [00:15:20] It's the what. So like there, there's a, there's a term I like to [00:15:25] use, human capability consulting, which is really like understanding what humans are excellent at [00:15:30] and what the AI is good at. [00:15:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:15:32] Sarah Stone McDevitt: We kind of have everything swishing around inside a bowl [00:15:35] at the minute, right? We have humans and the AI all swishing together. Um, and I [00:15:40] don't think businesses have properly looked at how can we get the AI to do all the [00:15:45] stuff that is not particularly good for humans or productive for humans, or doesn't [00:15:50] release our best creativity? [00:15:51] Sarah Stone McDevitt: How do we do that, um, in a way that like keeps the, [00:15:55] the lights on, keeps the business moving forward, that's all great, but then taking the humans [00:16:00] and really helping the humans understand where their, where their value is now. Because up [00:16:05] until this point, we've been measuring, in my opinion, human value [00:16:10] completely wrong. [00:16:11] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, because if you think back to school, like you were award- [00:16:15] rewarded for memorizing. Um, you know, in, in s- in work, you're, you're rewarded for [00:16:20] efficiency and speed and things like that. Um, and that's kind of what shows up on performance reviews. [00:16:25] But you know, the question I'm asking is, what if we've been measuring human value all [00:16:30] wrong to start with, right? [00:16:31] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and, and you will know like that the reason the book is [00:16:35] called The Round Table is sitting at the back of the class at a round table [00:16:40] because I was with the rest of the slow kids. A Zoolander would say, "Couldn't read too good." [00:16:45] Um, and what's, what's really interesting is that, you know, it's a great, [00:16:50] it's g- it's a great kind of metaphor for today where, you know, the kids at the top of the [00:16:55] class, you know, sitting at these very sharp triangle tables, um, they were learning [00:17:00] facts, formulas, and repeatable tasks, and guess who's very good at that? [00:17:04] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and [00:17:05] us down the back of the class you could say are kind of the unstructured data, right? The unruly humans. [00:17:10] And that really we're spending a lot of our time just connecting with each other, having the craic, learning like how [00:17:15] to talk to each other. Um- [00:17:17] Gerry Scullion: Having a laugh, just having fun. Oh [00:17:18] Sarah Stone McDevitt: yeah. Yeah. F the international [00:17:20] audience, yeah. [00:17:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:17:21] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, so you know, we were, we were down at the [00:17:25] back as that unstructured data observing the room really, and understanding how we're gonna navigate life, [00:17:30] whereas I often look at maybe some of the students that were the A class students up the front, [00:17:35] once their identity is being taken away now with AI, which is if you [00:17:40] think about it, that very process-driven stuff, what is their identity when you remove, you [00:17:45] know, uh, some of the things AI can do? [00:17:47] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah, exactly. [00:17:48] Gerry Scullion: It's, it's funny, and when [00:17:50] I was reading, and I did read a lot of the book, not all of it, I'm not gonna fool my listeners. [00:17:55] But this may come as a, a brutal shock to some of the [00:18:00] listeners, but I may not have been an A-class student in, uh, in school. [00:18:05] And I do remember a lot of my friends were, uh, A students, and I [00:18:10] remember one of their mothers saying to me, o- un- un- sort of like, you know, prompted, [00:18:15] "You mightn't be the smartest, but you've got very high emotional intelligence." [00:18:19] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:18:20] Mm. [00:18:20] Gerry Scullion: I went home to my, my mother and I was like, "What's emotional intelligence?" And they were [00:18:25] like, "Well, that shows that you've got, like, the ability to be able to read and, you know, understand other people." [00:18:30] And they, the, that mother, who was a psychologist, said, "Like, that's gonna become one of the most [00:18:35] important aspects of your life." [00:18:36] Gerry Scullion: And I was probably only about 14 or 15, [00:18:40] and I could see an awful lot, especially what you just said about being in, in the classroom. [00:18:45] We're teaching these children, you know, to play the game [00:18:50] and to, you know, it is a big quiz at the end of the day to, to retain this information, [00:18:55] and that's carried forward into or- into organizations So as you said, if [00:19:00] you strip that back away, um, is it possible for those people, [00:19:05] um, to develop these skills that we're talking about, increased [00:19:10] emotional intelligence or, or relational intelligence as you refer to it as?[00:19:15] [00:19:15] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I do. I do. You [00:19:17] Gerry Scullion: do believe in that? [00:19:17] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I, I strongly believe in this. Um, [00:19:20] and I do think that, you know, I, I was saying to someone the other day, I was like, you know, [00:19:25] currently we have a situation, um, and it used to be even stronger, you know, maybe one, two years [00:19:30] ago. [00:19:30] Gerry Scullion: Mm. [00:19:30] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and not to pick on any Daves, but I don't know why I always pick the da- generic name Dave, [00:19:35] but you know, there [00:19:37] Gerry Scullion: would be people- Can we pick some more a generic name like Sam so [00:19:38] Sarah Stone McDevitt: it could [00:19:38] Gerry Scullion: be- Sam [00:19:38] Gerry Scullion: you know, [00:19:38] Sarah Stone McDevitt: whatever Sam or Dave, right. [00:19:40] Yeah. [00:19:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. That's [00:19:40] Sarah Stone McDevitt: probably easier. Um, but these people come into a professional setting at, [00:19:45] at a meeting, and because their entire ide- identity is locked up and, you know, [00:19:50] Dave's the technical guy. Yeah. Dave goes to himself, "Uh, [00:19:55] I don't need to have a personality because my identity is wrapped up inside this idea [00:20:00] that I'm technical," right? [00:20:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:20:01] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um- The [00:20:02] Gerry Scullion: brand is technical. [00:20:03] Sarah Stone McDevitt: The brand is [00:20:05] technical. The problem with that kind of brand nowadays obviously is that AI is, you know, [00:20:10] starting to and will replace some of those, um, I suppose attributes if you will. [00:20:15] And so people start to need to lean on other things that, you know, bring value [00:20:20] to that room, or otherwise there's no really point you being in that room. [00:20:23] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and so one of [00:20:25] the things I talk about in the book is that for me, having kind of observed, [00:20:30] not, you know, I'm not saying this or I'm not a scientist or anything like that, I'm definitely not, I'm academic. I mean, [00:20:35] God knows. Um, but one thing I learn through is conversational [00:20:40] learning. That's my thing. I listen and I learn. [00:20:43] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and I, [00:20:45] you know, ask people questions. I use analogies a lot. That's my, the, [00:20:50] the way I learn. Um, and, and through that I kind of was like, hmm, there's kind of five things [00:20:55] that people who are very good at connecting with other people do. And it's interesting that your, you, you know, that woman [00:21:00] said, "You're not smart, but you have this." [00:21:02] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, you know, for years we've called, [00:21:05] we've, we have a term called street, street smarts. Um, and it is actually very much of, that's [00:21:10] kind of social intelligence. You could even say it's physical intelligence. Um, [00:21:15] and so, you know, I think emotional intelligence is a very much a form of, of smarts that [00:21:20] some people lack, and with detrimental effects. [00:21:22] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Like I think we, we [00:21:25] discount the impact of not having that form of intelligence 'cause we value the wrong [00:21:30] things. As I said, I think we have valued and put people on pedestals- That, you know, and [00:21:35] we see that sometimes in the medical p- profession where we see doctors that have absolutely no [00:21:40] bedside, bedside manner- Mm-hmm [00:21:41] Sarah Stone McDevitt: um, no empathy, but wow they could remember those medical [00:21:45] textbooks. Um, so I think, you know, we- we, for me, I feel strong about this, but the, the [00:21:50] five things I look at is, one is, um, something I call awareness. Now, [00:21:55] I will say, Gerry, and you know this, um, nothing in the book is rocket science [00:22:00] or anything that's new. [00:22:01] Sarah Stone McDevitt: It's just a different way of framing it, um, I think in [00:22:05] today's world. Um, your 80-year-old granny would probably respond and go, "For [00:22:10] God's sake, don't tell me to suck eggs," as they say in some parts of the world. It [00:22:15] is pr- common sense. This is [00:22:16] Gerry Scullion: self-deprecation humor used in Ireland very, very often, folks, [00:22:20] where Sarah tries to belittle- [00:22:22] Gerry Scullion: their own production of what they've created, and I'm not gonna [00:22:25] stand for it on this podcast, okay? Okay. Because it is very, it is very, very, um, the [00:22:30] work is really strong, but there's direct, you know, kind of, there's a lot of symmetries and [00:22:35] synergies between human-centered design and a lot of the stuff that we're talking about [00:22:40] is empowering the, the people who may not have natural, um, you know, as you say, [00:22:45] street smarts or emotional intelligence or relational intelligence, the ability to be able to build those [00:22:50] connections with other people, and that's what came through in the book for me. [00:22:53] Gerry Scullion: It's so, so important. [00:22:55] You're a natural connector, uh, Sarah, like, you know, y- you- you've obviously, [00:23:00] it's served you well, those behaviors have served you well in your career. So [00:23:05] in, in the effort of kind of like moving through the book, you've got five strategies [00:23:10] at the end that if you were, and I do just t- training, [00:23:15] folks, as you know, like I like to break these things down into, into different pieces. [00:23:18] Gerry Scullion: Can we walk through each [00:23:20] of those five pieces for people to be able to kind of like understand, um, [00:23:25] you think you refer to them as signals, is that right? [00:23:27] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. [00:23:27] Gerry Scullion: The five signals, I love that. [00:23:30] Um, so I think the first one, I'm looking at the book so I know for a fact [00:23:35] I'm not thinking, I'm actually telling the truth, is awareness, okay? [00:23:38] Gerry Scullion: Practice reading rooms and noticing [00:23:40] contradictions between what people say and how they say it. This is super important as a [00:23:45] design researcher, folks, because whenever you're researching people and you're trying to understand, you [00:23:50] know, are they actually really talking about this stuff, or are they actually got a little bit of [00:23:55] a frown when they're talking, we're always looking at the full context of the, the person that we're [00:24:00] researching. [00:24:00] Gerry Scullion: So if you're in an organization, Sarah, how, how can [00:24:05] people improve their awareness in the, the meeting sense or in the workshop sense, or even [00:24:10] in the, the digital form like where we are here now as well at the moment, w- w- what's your advice to them on [00:24:15] that? [00:24:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, so I mean, I guess it's related to the second signal, but I, [00:24:20] I will say that for me, um, awareness is just that. [00:24:23] Sarah Stone McDevitt: You have to be [00:24:25] aware of the dynamics in a room. You can't just assume the words that are coming out of someone's [00:24:30] mouth is what's actually happening. So you just said there, um, you know, [00:24:35] it's really interesting that if you have a group of people in a room and everyone's in violent agreement [00:24:40] with each other that, you know, something's happening, but you notice there's one person down the back of the room, and you [00:24:45] can tell they're not entirely sure. [00:24:46] Sarah Stone McDevitt: You can just tell. If you're, like, really, like, truly leaning into your awareness, you [00:24:50] can tell. That is the time to stop and say, "John, I feel [00:24:55] like maybe you have a question or there's something there that's not resonating with you." Because if you don't do [00:25:00] that in that moment and you don't start to, like, lean into those things, that person will be the [00:25:05] person that will block, you know, progress later on in the journey because [00:25:10] they didn't maybe wanna speak up in that room, but you noticed. [00:25:13] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And also, another thing I'd [00:25:15] say is if you know that person in the room is, you know, shy or maybe they're not an extrovert, [00:25:20] you can then, you know, connect with them outside the room after. Go, "Listen, when we were talking about that, you [00:25:25] didn't seem so sure. Like, do you wanna maybe go for a coffee one on one and we can dive into what your, [00:25:30] your, your issues are?" [00:25:31] Sarah Stone McDevitt: In a, in a, in a sales sense, I would say, you know, [00:25:35] we... It, it's really interesting. We all know sometimes when someone raises an eyebrow, Gerry, and [00:25:40] the energy just gets sucked out of the room. No one said anything. Nothing really major [00:25:45] happened, but the, the whole dynamic shifts in the room, and it's off, and you know now is [00:25:50] not the time to push forward. [00:25:51] Sarah Stone McDevitt: It might be the time to just sit back for a minute. [00:25:53] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. It could even be [00:25:55] a breath. [00:25:56] Sarah Stone McDevitt: It could, it can be. You're absolutely right Right. [00:25:59] Gerry Scullion: Um, [00:26:00] so in the digital form, we lose an awfu- an awful lot of that, the [00:26:05] ability to read people. Um, we can just see, you know, obviously chest height and above. [00:26:10] Um, but for people who are nervous, the, the, the sort of the, [00:26:15] the foot jumping up and down, which I'm doing here at the moment, um, that's lost.[00:26:20] [00:26:20] Gerry Scullion: So am I right in I'm trying to distill this down into, you know, kind [00:26:25] of the, the practice of design, facilitation is actually a, one of the super [00:26:30] skills to hone, to be able to understand that you're actually more of a [00:26:35] chaperone if you want. You're, you're helping people through- [00:26:38] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Mm-hmm ... [00:26:39] Gerry Scullion: through that journey [00:26:40] of making a decision to get to the next point so that everybody is included. [00:26:44] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. Y- [00:26:45] You have to be the coach. You have to, you have to be a coach in that situation. You have to r- ask the right questions [00:26:50] to really draw it out of people. Um- Yeah ... I, I kind of semi, I, I, you [00:26:55] know, during the pandemic, I, I'm a very social butterfly, I thought I'd shrivel up and die [00:27:00] when we all had to work from home- Yeah [00:27:01] Sarah Stone McDevitt: that's the honest truth, and- Yeah ... um, one thing I [00:27:05] started doing the pa- during the pandemic is I reached out to random colleagues, set up time. I'm sure they were like, "Who is this [00:27:10] person?" Set up a random time. But actually, like, if you can just spend a little bit of time [00:27:15] talking about other things that aren't directly related to the task, which is what I talk about a lot in the book, is [00:27:20] the, the thing that helps you compound your relationships over time is [00:27:25] inefficient practices, and one of those inefficient practices is actually talking to people- Yeah [00:27:29] Sarah Stone McDevitt: and [00:27:30] that's quite difficult. Um, but you can actually, if w- if you can spend [00:27:35] time, you know, talking to people, it, from a digital sense you can actually tell when they're [00:27:40] off, um, and there is some tells. Your face tells, uh, quite a lot. [00:27:45] Um, so you just need to, uh, be more aware. [00:27:47] Gerry Scullion: I'm trying to think of, of [00:27:50] context of organizations that I might have, uh, encountered where certain people may [00:27:55] be neurodiverse but we didn't real- realize it at the time, and we just said, "They actually don't like interaction.[00:28:00] [00:28:00] Gerry Scullion: They don't, they don't want to be disturbed." So you reaching out and saying, "Hey, would you like to [00:28:05] get some time with some people?" They'd be like, "What the is going on here? I don't wanna have a conversation with this person." [00:28:10] Help me understand the relational intelligence piece [00:28:15] regarding how you interact with people like that. [00:28:17] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. It's a good question. So- [00:28:19] Gerry Scullion: Brilliant [00:28:20] question, in fact. Joking. [00:28:22] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So here, here's, here's one, here's one of the [00:28:25] things that, um, I personally have done over the years and continue to do. I [00:28:30] will ask people who know a person well, like, what's their, what, what, how do they, [00:28:35] uh, absorb information? Like, what's their- Yeah [00:28:37] Sarah Stone McDevitt: preferences? Now, when I walk into a [00:28:40] presentation, if I know I have to, I have 20 minutes for the presentation and I'm speaking to like, you [00:28:45] know, the CMO and the, yeah, you know, their, their chief financial [00:28:50] officer- Mm-hmm ... I know instinctively a chief financial officer, based on their [00:28:55] personality type, likely on their role, is they're gonna be a detail- details-orientated person. [00:28:59] Sarah Stone McDevitt: They [00:29:00] wanna know the exact how, but you only have 20 minutes, right? So in those [00:29:05] situations, I will present for the C- CMO, which tend to be more top [00:29:10] line, don't wanna know the details, just tell me like the good stuff. Um, but I'll always start the [00:29:15] conversation with going, "Now, I have a pack for you to take away that is going deep in [00:29:20] all the detail, um, so that you can have all of this and we'll set up an additional meeting [00:29:25] after to go through the questions." [00:29:26] Sarah Stone McDevitt: You can immediately see the detail-oriented people in the room go, "Ah." [00:29:30] [00:29:30] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:29:31] Sarah Stone McDevitt: They're going, "Okay, my particular communication style is being take- [00:29:35] catered here for, but we only have 20 minutes. We can't go totally into the weeds." And the CMO is like delighted with [00:29:40] life because you're, you're, you're, you're catering to that particular meeting time. [00:29:43] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So I think it is understanding the [00:29:45] different personality types you have in a room and trying to at least connect, [00:29:50] even not in that moment, but what you know they're gonna need after the fact to help them through and, and [00:29:55] make a decision. And even to your point about, you know, whether it's setting up a coffee, I [00:30:00] sometimes have people that just interact with me completely over email, and they have like 25 [00:30:05] questions, and I know they don't wanna talk to me. [00:30:07] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So if that's their particular communication style and [00:30:10] it's detail-oriented, then I'll respond to that. So I think it is just at least understanding [00:30:15] everyone doesn't communicate the same way as you and trying your best to understand what is their preference and meeting [00:30:20] them where they are. [00:30:21] Gerry Scullion: So if you don't know those people- And you don't have any of the [00:30:25] friends around them. [00:30:25] Gerry Scullion: Is it just helping them shape their own kind of [00:30:30] preferred agenda for those kind of events? [00:30:33] Sarah Stone McDevitt: No, I always ask them. [00:30:35] Um, I think- That's lovely ... you just have to be, just t- tell me a little bit, like, what suits you in terms of [00:30:40] the way you, um, you know, consume information, and how can I make this the easiest way for [00:30:45] you? [00:30:45] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And people are generally delighted with that question. They go, "Well, listen, I'm not [00:30:50] one for meetings. I much prefer a presentation. I much prefer a document. I much prefer email." [00:30:55] Whatever it is. I have some people who's just voicemails, like just voice notes over and back. Um, [00:31:00] I think sometimes we, we, we assume that the test in life is that we're mind readers, and sometimes [00:31:05] I think the best thing we can do is just ask the simple question. [00:31:08] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and people often are happy to [00:31:10] answer it because it makes life easier for them. [00:31:12] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. The second [00:31:15] signal, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. I'll try not to do any music. Uh, eliminate digital [00:31:20] distractions during important conversations. Now, I find this very difficult. Um, when you're, when you're working [00:31:25] for yourself, you're kind of like spinning plates. [00:31:27] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Um, practice giving your full attention and [00:31:30] active listening. I love that. Uh, learn to make others feel truly [00:31:35] seen and heard. Okay? So in your experience, um, [00:31:40] you know, can you give us an example of what that might look like in a [00:31:45] physical sense when you're in a, in a room? Mm-hmm. What are the things that you kind of go, "This is a [00:31:50] must. [00:31:50] Gerry Scullion: This, like, a non-negotiable," you know? What do you tell people when you're having those kind [00:31:55] of meetings? [00:31:57] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Well, for me, so the, the, the signaling, like as [00:32:00] a, as a whole, I call it presence. Um, and kind of the short version is being fully there, [00:32:05] whether it's digital or whether, whether it's in person. For, i- in the in-person sense, [00:32:10] I'm, I've often been shocked the amount of times I go into meetings and people have their laptops right in front of them and their keys [00:32:15] on the keyboard. [00:32:15] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. Um, so for me, I don't bring my laptop to a [00:32:20] meeting unless, if, if, if you're in the meeting and you're talking them through a presentation or you're talking them [00:32:25] through a data point, that's completely fair. But then when you move to the conversational part, I [00:32:30] close my laptop, I put it to the side. I always keep my phone completely off the table. [00:32:34] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:32:35] Um, and you know, like right now, I have my watch on the do not [00:32:40] disturb mode, right? Because I'm fully engaged with you. So I think it's, [00:32:45] it's, it's that, but it's also the one thing that's really difficult for people, like [00:32:50] it's really difficult, I will admit, I think this is one of the things we've lost, is [00:32:55] people are super interesting. [00:32:57] Sarah Stone McDevitt: If you look them in the eye and you have a conversation with them, [00:33:00] and you're like really truly engaged with them, they're interesting, right? And the thing that it also, [00:33:05] people need to understand and realize the value of the future is if we're engaged [00:33:10] and we're fully connected with each other and we're having a really interesting conversation, and you feel [00:33:15] that, um, you will give me more in that conversation than if it was purely a [00:33:20] transactional one. [00:33:20] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Like, you will tell me a story or you will go down a path if I'm interested in [00:33:25] you, um- And the, and the feeling, you know, truly, you know, not just [00:33:30] seen and heard, but truly acknowledged, is not waiting for your turn to tell another story, [00:33:35] right? Exactly. So sometimes it's, it's hard as humans, but when someone tells you a [00:33:40] story, and it's very Irish actually, um, is to just take their story and sit with it, [00:33:45] and maybe don't... [00:33:46] Sarah Stone McDevitt: You know, you don't always need to, you, you just [00:33:50] sometimes need to go to them, "Wow, that must have been really rough for you." Yeah. Um, you know, "How can I [00:33:55] support you?" Without going, "Oh, well if you think that's bad, you wanna hear what happened to me?" Right? And I think, like, [00:34:00] we're all guilty of that. So I think that's the acknowledgement part, is just to sit with [00:34:05] other people's stories. [00:34:06] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, and if you can do that, you're actually, like, learning way more than [00:34:10] you do rather than this tennis match of over and back, where you're trying to, like, outdo each other. [00:34:15] [00:34:15] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So one of the pieces that I, like I didn't see in the five signals, and that was [00:34:20] the ability to give feedback. Mm-hmm. And I listen to my wife, who works for a big tech company, [00:34:25] and they do these kind of two-by-twos, they're called, giving people [00:34:30] feedback at certain things, what they can do better and so forth. [00:34:33] Gerry Scullion: In those meetings that I'm, that you're [00:34:35] talking about here, sometimes people can come across, this is gonna be come as a shock, folks, [00:34:40] come across wrong in meetings. They c- their personality overloads and they dominate [00:34:45] the meetings. You know, presence is, is like a, it's a balance. Like, you can [00:34:50] bring so much and you can bring so little. [00:34:51] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, how do you manage that when people [00:34:55] are so over-present and dominating, where it begins into that world where it's actually [00:35:00] destructive to the, to the, the event? [00:35:02] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Well, I would say that some of that is driven [00:35:05] by uncom- being uncomfortable with the tension of a performance [00:35:10] conversation. Sometimes it's better to bark at people so they don't have any chance to respond or, [00:35:15] you know, show any kind of emotion that you might be uncomfortable with, is my personal view on this. [00:35:19] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:35:20] Um, so I think, you know, if being present is also about being able to [00:35:25] sit with the uncomfortable silence, um... And you know, I learned this when I worked [00:35:30] with a load of technical consultants. I remember I would say things on a call, [00:35:35] and they'd be like And my, but in the early days, I'd be like, [00:35:40] "Is that okay?" [00:35:40] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Like, "What, what are you thinking?" You know? And they say nothing back. But actually, the more, the more I got to know them, I [00:35:45] just said nothing. I just, I said nothing. I just waited, and I was very comfortable in the waiting, and [00:35:50] I knew they were processing. And then eventually they'd say, "I've got a follow-up question on that." [00:35:54] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:35:55] And I'd be like, "Wonderful. Let's deal with that." So I think, you know, you have to, even if you think [00:36:00] about the different roles that we have, like some technical people, their minds are processing. S- [00:36:05] some other people are, like, very on the surface, like, so they can, like, be, be very quick about that. [00:36:10] Um, but there, there is a, there is a necessity with presence to sit with the, sit with the, the [00:36:15] uncomfortableness. [00:36:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um- [00:36:17] Gerry Scullion: I remember trying that out, Sarah, when I was in s- in Sydney. I [00:36:20] was doing a project for a business, and I was working with lots of developers [00:36:25] or technical, and I said, "I'm j- I'm just gonna wait." And [00:36:30] I waited for, I was given more, more room to kind of think and process. [00:36:35] And probably the worst sound you can ever hear at that moment is[00:36:40] [00:36:42] Gerry Scullion: A snore, I heard a snore at the back of the [00:36:45] room [00:36:45] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah [00:36:46] Gerry Scullion: And I was just like, "Is, is he asleep?" He looked like Peter [00:36:50] Griffin, in fairness, so, um, I gave him too much, uh, time , gave him too much time to think. [00:36:55] Moving on, empathe- empath- empathic structuring, okay- Yeah ... so building care and [00:37:00] boundaries into your work and processes. [00:37:01] Gerry Scullion: Now, th- Rachel Dekas, who's a really good friend and [00:37:05] does work with us at Humana, um, is a trauma-informed design specialist, and this is super [00:37:10] important, um, you know, that, that care and boundaries. How do you, [00:37:15] um, what's your advice to businesses in there who maybe don't have a design function like we would [00:37:20] like to see? [00:37:20] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. How, what steps can they do to, um, protect their [00:37:25] employees, especially when they're, when they're working like this? [00:37:27] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah, so you, you actually said feedback is [00:37:30] not in the signals, but actually feedback, designing feedback sentence, uh, systems is part of empathetic [00:37:35] structuring. Uh, I'll forgive you for that one, Gerry. [00:37:37] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, it is- No worries ... [00:37:40] um, so I, I h- hear... It, it's kind of inherently linked to the whole AI [00:37:45] situation, right? Because one of the things that, um, AI does [00:37:50] is it doesn't really care. It will optimize, it will do what the thing n- need, [00:37:55] that needs to happen, but it doesn't really care if it makes a mistake, right? [00:37:58] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And so the AI is not [00:38:00] gonna lie awake at night going, "Oh man, I messed up. I need to make this right." The AI's not gonna do [00:38:05] that. But one thing I'm finding is- You know, humans want other [00:38:10] humans to be accountable to them because they want someone to want to fix it, and they want [00:38:15] someone to feel bad about it, right? [00:38:16] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And if you're creating an environment of empathetic [00:38:20] structuring, you're saying, "Yes, we absolutely care about you. Like, we wanna make sure that you're [00:38:25] happy, but at the same time, we're gonna need you to show up and do your job properly, and you're gonna be held [00:38:30] accountable for not doing it." Um, and if, if, I think in [00:38:35] recent years we've leaned far too heavily into empathy- Yeah [00:38:38] Sarah Stone McDevitt: and it's created this situation [00:38:40] where people are like, "I can say anything that I want, and I kind of, you know, don't have to be accountable to [00:38:45] people because people are being so empathetic to me." It is about going, "Yes, we care about [00:38:50] you, but still, there, we have requirements, and your team has requirements of you, and the [00:38:55] business has requirements of you that you, you know, you need to, you need to do that." [00:38:58] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And I think that the [00:39:00] same is true probably in, um, any organization where [00:39:05] you have to have some rules and guidance around [00:39:10] the way the humans interact with each other. Because if we all just said, "We're all humans. Sure, [00:39:15] that's enough," it just simply- Yeah ... is not enough because everyone is a different human. [00:39:19] Sarah Stone McDevitt: We all have [00:39:20] different morals. We all have different, you know, values in the way that we do things depending on the way we were raised. [00:39:25] And so for me, empathetic structuring creates this, like, shared sense of [00:39:30] responsibility and guidance about, yes, we care about each other, but we also are accountable to each other to [00:39:35] deliver things. [00:39:35] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um- Yeah ... and I think for me, that's kind of one of the, the most important things. [00:39:40] [00:39:40] Gerry Scullion: Connection capital. Okay. Yeah. This is a very fancy word for [00:39:45] networking, I think. Is that right? [00:39:47] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Well, networking is more- Right ... of a, of a harvest [00:39:50] Relationships ... I would say. Um- [00:39:52] Gerry Scullion: Maybe, maybe relationships, would that be a better? [00:39:54] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I would say [00:39:55] banking on relationships and how important they are. [00:39:57] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um- Yeah ... yeah, it's banking on [00:40:00] relationships because- You know, if I, and, and I talk about this in the book a bit, my [00:40:05] grandfathers were farmers. Mm-hmm. And you really, at harvest time, if you needed, like, [00:40:10] extra, you know, um, farm labor or something like that, your reputation mattered, and who [00:40:15] you were c- who you were connected with and had, like, a long-term relationship with mattered. [00:40:19] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um, [00:40:20] because if you needed someone in the next harvest season, you didn't want people going, "I don't know anyone." Like, you- Yeah ... [00:40:25] you want a network you can activate, right? I think in a, in a, in a business sense, [00:40:30] sometimes we have an over-reliance on the one person we know in that business. So we kind of tether [00:40:35] ourself very loosely to them. [00:40:36] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And so what connection capital is about is really, like, [00:40:40] mapping out everyone within an organization to understand who, you know, all of the, [00:40:45] the different ways they interplay with each other. So if a person leaves, your relationship doesn't break [00:40:50] down because your relationship can't be with that one person. [00:40:52] Sarah Stone McDevitt: It has to be deeply embedded in there. [00:40:55] Exactly. And then the other thing I'd say is that we tend sometimes in business, and [00:41:00] maybe sometimes in our personal lives, to treat relationships as transactional. We kind of go like, "Oh, this is [00:41:05] what it says in the contract. That's all you're getting out of me." That kind of treats the relationship [00:41:10] with, a- as if it's a business and an entity. [00:41:12] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. When you have a relationship with a [00:41:15] person within an entity, you maybe send them an article you've seen about their industry to go, "Hey, I saw this [00:41:20] and I thought it was really interesting. I was just gonna pass it on to you." Those kind of non-transactional, [00:41:25] non, you know, contractual obligations where you just simply say to someone, "I was [00:41:30] thinking of you, um, you know, in the world, and I just thought I'd share this piece of information," [00:41:35] that is what starts to build, like, real relational infrastructure, as I call it. [00:41:39] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. [00:41:40] And then the, the, the kind of, I suppose, byproduct of that often can be higher [00:41:45] referrals for you. Um, like, 'cause, you know, that person goes, "Hey, you know who I think is great?" So [00:41:50] connection capital is m- is, is building up the capital that you will have that will [00:41:55] pay dividends long term with those relationships. [00:41:57] Gerry Scullion: Oh, man, this kind of scares me, the superficial [00:42:00] nature of people kind of going potentially automating, [00:42:05] you know, the superficiality of kinda like, "Hey, Gerry's interested in [00:42:10] service design. I've seen this link over here. Share all of these links to Gerry," [00:42:15] and then I get bombarded with- [00:42:17] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I know, but you would inherently know the difference between [00:42:20] what was automated and what was real. [00:42:22] Sarah Stone McDevitt: I do, I do believe that. You could start cutting out the [00:42:25] newspaper articles, Gerry, and like just put, send them in the post. [00:42:28] Gerry Scullion: Well, then we're end up gonna get like a [00:42:30] little farm over, like, you know, in another par- part of the world where people's tasks are [00:42:35] cutting out the newsletter pages. [00:42:36] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. True, true, [00:42:37] Gerry Scullion: true. [00:42:37] Gerry Scullion: And then posting them, but anyway, I'm being- Yeah ... totally cynical. So human [00:42:40] differentiation. [00:42:40] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. [00:42:41] Gerry Scullion: Leverage your intuition and lived experience, develop creative approaches that break [00:42:45] established patterns, and practice authentic vulnerability and values-based judgment. Talk to [00:42:50] me. Talk to me, Sarah. Tell me about this. [00:42:52] Sarah Stone McDevitt: So I mean, this is probably one of my [00:42:55] strongest beliefs is that in the future it's not human versus AI, it's, [00:43:00] uh, so if you're, if you're going, "Well, I'm gonna show up with the humanity no AI has," that's [00:43:05] just not gonna work. That's stupid. Um, it's going to be [00:43:10] AI-empowered humans and great humans against other humans, right? [00:43:14] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. Um, I [00:43:15] think that's like the, the main message. And so one of the things [00:43:20] that, again, AI is very good at is pat- pattern recognition. So it looks at patterns and [00:43:25] decides like, you know, particular outcomes based on past, but it doesn't take into account [00:43:30] humans are awfully unpredictable. Absolutely. And one of the things that makes us unpredictable is our own lived [00:43:35] experience. [00:43:36] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. And so me and you have, you know, if we were approaching a problem, the [00:43:40] likelihood is we would approach it very differently based on an experience we had in our lives. Maybe you've done it [00:43:45] before in the past and you went, "Ugh, that was like, you know, a dumpster fire," um, "so I [00:43:50] will do it a different way." [00:43:51] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Or maybe I'm coming at it from a total place of innocence where I've never had [00:43:55] any kind of like workplace trauma in the past, so I'll approach it slightly differently. [00:44:00] But you know, I was talking to an artist recently and she, [00:44:05] um, painted a picture, and she was telling me about her past and going like, "Oh, I wish I'd stuck with the [00:44:10] art, you know, sooner in life." [00:44:11] Sarah Stone McDevitt: And I was asking her like what the picture was about, and she was like, "Oh, it's [00:44:15] about motherhood, and you know, um, my experience as being a parent." But I was like, "If you [00:44:20] hadn't done exactly what you'd done, that picture would not exist," right? "That creativity would not [00:44:25] exist." So our lived experiences really are so important in the way that we [00:44:30] produce solutions to problems, and so this is for me, the human [00:44:35] differentiation is about, yes, with the AI, but also with your own [00:44:40] lived experiences, your intuition, and the thing that flavors you as a person. [00:44:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I love that. [00:44:45] I love that, Sarah. You're, you're very special in [00:44:50] putting all this stuff together, and I mean that. Like, you know, you're on the Human Centered Design Podcast. I have no problem showing my [00:44:55] emotion. Um, I'm gonna put a link to the book, okay, [00:45:00] in the show notes, and I'm gonna do something that I don't usually do, but I'm gonna run a [00:45:05] competition, and there'll have to be a, a, a link below for you folks who are listening to this. [00:45:09] Gerry Scullion: [00:45:10] If you wanna win a copy of this book, um, I'm gonna buy it from Sarah, I'm gonna get it [00:45:15] signed with your name as well, and I'll post it out. I will post it out. We're not gonna go [00:45:20] to Mr. Jeff Bezos. Um, we'll sign it- So you'll cut out a [00:45:24] Sarah Stone McDevitt: [00:45:25] paper, you'll cut out a paper article to put in the book to prove- [00:45:28] Gerry Scullion: Do you know what? [00:45:29] Gerry Scullion: I- I'll [00:45:30] even draw a wee little picture, and I'll put it in the book as well, like, you know, for you. Um, so [00:45:35] I haven't decided how we're gonna do it, but there'll be a link in the show notes. You can win a copy of the book, [00:45:40] and it'll be signed by Sarah as well because, as I said, we're in the same area and we do know each other. [00:45:44] Gerry Scullion: [00:45:45] This isn't why Sarah's on the podcast, by the way, folks. It's not because I know her and... I only have people on the [00:45:50] podcast who I really believe in their work, and Sarah is a great thinker. Um, so feel free to [00:45:55] connect with Sarah on LinkedIn. Check out their website. There'll be a link down there below as well if you [00:46:00] wanna find out more information or if you wanna have Sarah come to your organization and talk about this stuff. [00:46:04] Gerry Scullion: The [00:46:05] book is fantastic. I'm not just saying that. Um, and lastly, Sarah, I wanna wrap up the [00:46:10] podcast 'cause I thank everyone who comes on the podcast for allowing me to go in many different [00:46:15] directions. I try and have a natural conversation as opposed to these, uh, awful scripted [00:46:20] conversations where they feel completely clinical. [00:46:22] Gerry Scullion: Um, so thank you for giving me the opportunity to have a chat [00:46:25] like that. Really appreciated it. [00:46:27] Sarah Stone McDevitt: No, well, I really appreciate it. And, uh, [00:46:30] one thing I'd say about you, Gerry, is that, um, that comes across because I [00:46:35] feel nothing but relaxed, and I feel like this is a natural conversation. [00:46:40] And I agree with you, sometimes I get nervous going on podcasts sometimes 'cause I'm like, "Oh, God, [00:46:45] I need to, like, really, like, you know, be scientific about this or, like, come across like I'm some kind of [00:46:50] genius." [00:46:50] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Um- No ... and, you know, it felt like just such a human conversation, so I'm very [00:46:55] grateful for that. [00:46:55] Gerry Scullion: Nice. Sarah, you rock. I'll talk to you soon. [00:46:58] Sarah Stone McDevitt: Yeah. Thanks, [00:47:00] [00:47:05] Gerry.