The UK Parliament Case Study: What Happens When You Organise Around Services with Ben Reason

[00:00:00] Hey, folks, and welcome back to another episode of This Is HCD. My [00:00:05] name is Gerry Scullion, and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city [00:00:10] of Dublin, Ireland. Today on the show, I'm delighted to welcome co-founder [00:00:15] Ben Reason of Livework, one of the longest, if not the longest, [00:00:20] service design agencies in the world. [00:00:22] Ben is one of those people that I [00:00:25] learned from way back in the day when the first seminal books of [00:00:30] service design were published in the early 2010s, I believe. Now, in this [00:00:35] conversation, we spoke about a case study that Ben mentioned to me in passing [00:00:40] about the British Parliament, um, how journey architecture, service architecture, and [00:00:45] journey management, call it what you want... [00:00:47] They don't call it that, British government, though we uncover [00:00:50] that in this episode. Now, if you imagine it's the year 2001, and three [00:00:55] designers got together over a weekend and decided that they were going to start a company [00:01:00] doing something that the world didn't really have a name for yet. That is how [00:01:05] Livework was born. [00:01:06] We cover that in another episode with Ben a couple of years ago. [00:01:10] But in this episode, myself and Ben trace that arc from the early days of [00:01:15] really designing websites way back in those points where from my own experience, where they were [00:01:20] designing experiences and services for connected cars like Fiat and mobile [00:01:25] services for Orange, to today's reality, where we're at right now, organizations adopting [00:01:30] journey management as an operating model, sometimes without ever even calling it [00:01:35] that. [00:01:35] Now, the conversational centerpiece for this conversation is really about the [00:01:40] UK Parliament, a transformation that took three years instead of five, that's because [00:01:45] they're so good at doing this stuff, and where service design got rebadged as [00:01:50] value streams and embedded inside the COO's operating model.[00:01:55] [00:01:55] Ben argues this q- kind of quiet translation isn't a compromise, it's [00:02:00] actually how the work actually lands. We get into the politics. I ask a lot all of [00:02:05] the nuances, some questions that I've wanted to know the answers to, like how do you price this stuff, [00:02:10] and, and where service and why service design is countercultural by [00:02:15] definition. [00:02:15] We really get into the whole kind of design punk stuff. If you're following me on LinkedIn [00:02:20] or reading my newsletter on thisishcd.com, I started talking a lot more around what it means to [00:02:25] be design punk. I believe we're right at that moment, uh, right now. I see a lot of parallels [00:02:30] between 2001 And where we're at right now where AI is really disrupting things, [00:02:35] the web and digital was doing exactly the same thing in 2001, and Ben gives [00:02:40] his thoughts on that. [00:02:41] It's a fantastic conversation, I know you're gonna enjoy it 'cause Ben is [00:02:45] amazing. And remember, if you're listening to this episode and you want to know a little bit more around [00:02:50] journey management, there's a free course that myself and Mark Stickdorn created on [00:02:55] thisishcd.com. You can just go to it, sign up with your email address, and take the course. [00:02:59] It's [00:03:00] fantastic. I know you're gonna love this one, so let's jump straight in[00:03:05] [00:03:10] [00:03:12] Ben, we are recording. Um, [00:03:15] delighted to have you back on the podcast. I actually don't know when the last time w- w- we've [00:03:20] spoken on the podcast, I think it might've been during the, during the pandemic. Um, but great to [00:03:25] have you back on, on the show. But for anyone who has lived under a rock and who [00:03:30] is into service design and may not, uh, recognize the name Ben Reason, [00:03:35] maybe give us a little bit of an introduction of who you are and what you do. [00:03:39] Hi, Gerry, yeah, I think [00:03:40] it's a, a decent gap between the last time, respectable length of time- Yeah ... to have me back on. [00:03:45] Uh, so hi, everybody, I'm Ben. I'm, uh, one of the founders of [00:03:50] Livework, and we kind of modestly claim to be [00:03:55] the s- the first service design company, the first company- Yeah ... that kinda went out in the world and said, "Service design is [00:04:00] a thing, it's what we do," um, back in 2001. [00:04:02] So I'm the last one [00:04:05] standing of the three founders. Um, so- [00:04:06] Yeah, you, you haven't killed them, just to be clear, like, you know No, no, [00:04:09] no, [00:04:10] they, they, they managed to move on to new things. I'm, I'm still treading the same [00:04:15] path [00:04:15] Yeah, no, um, I mean, L- Livework has been ar- been around for, uh, [00:04:20] that's 25 years. That's, uh, it's a pretty epic story, and I mean, [00:04:25] someday someone's gonna buy the Netflix rights to that story I'm sure of- Oh, [00:04:29] good [00:04:29] the early days [00:04:30] Well, it's a modern story [00:04:31] Yeah but we're, we wanna speak a little bit more today, [00:04:35] um, around, well, I'd like to talk a bit more around the journey of service design from the early days [00:04:40] to, to where we're at now, 'cause I believe we're at a really interesting point. [00:04:45] Um, I know speaking from personal experience and professional experience, [00:04:50] um, where service design is at and journey management and stuff, um, we're gonna get into [00:04:55] that in a little bit. [00:04:56] But tell me a little bit about the, the origins of Livework, and what [00:05:00] service design was like, and what kind of problems organizations had in those days that you might [00:05:05] have been presented with trying to help them- Yeah ... solve. Okay. [00:05:07] So the, the [00:05:10] origin myth that we have, um, was that the, the three of us, so Laverance, [00:05:15] Chris, and myself, um, we were all working for other agencies and a bit [00:05:20] kind of fed up with- Mm-hmm [00:05:22] working for somebody else. So, and, and also [00:05:25] wanted to... kinda came together with the idea of, of starting a design studio. So you know, we, we [00:05:30] were working for There's digital shops, you know, where marketing or technology [00:05:35] might be in the lead or-- And we were like, "Let's, let's, let's do some design-led stuff." [00:05:39] And we [00:05:40] didn't- Yeah. We got together for a weekend. Th-those guys were both [00:05:45] product/industrial design- [00:05:47] Same as me in industrial ... [00:05:48] graduates. And, and they, [00:05:50] they'd been at the Royal College on their master's together where they'd kind of, [00:05:55] I, I think, written something about, like, the product is dead, along with the [00:06:00] services. [00:06:00] They'd realized that they were working in the service industries even if they'd been trained for sort of [00:06:05] manufacturing. Yeah. At the same time, I'd been on the master's, and I'd read a, a book called Natural [00:06:10] Capitalism, which has a whole chapter on services as a sort of driver of [00:06:15] ef-efficiency and, and particularly around, like, ecological, [00:06:20] like, reducing waste. [00:06:21] So we, we'd all been, like, into the, uh, whole service, like we're [00:06:25] thinking about services, realizing that. Yeah. And we just sort of said over a weekend, "Maybe we're a service design [00:06:30] company." Um, and then we went out and looked around to see what was-- [00:06:35] whether that was a thing. And we, you know, we found Lynn Shostack, who's the kind of a [00:06:40] touchstone in service design as, as the kind of originator of service blueprints. [00:06:44] We found Birgit [00:06:45] Mager teaching service design in Cologne. Um, we, we, you know, we [00:06:50] knew IDEO, and they'd, they'd done some work for Amtrak around, you know, like multi-multi-channel, [00:06:55] multi-touchpoint kind of brand-driven design work. So that was kind of... That [00:07:00] was our mission, was to, to do that and make that a thing. [00:07:03] Um- Yeah. [00:07:05] And we, we did say, you know, "If it's gonna be a thing, we s- we probably [00:07:10] need competition." You need, you know, we need other people doing it, otherwise we're just standalone. [00:07:15] [00:07:15] Yeah. [00:07:15] At some point you'll need to s- to be able to study it, and it needs a language, it needs a kind of [00:07:20] culture around it. And [00:07:21] knowledge. [00:07:21] Um, [00:07:22] so that was our, our, our starting up. And [00:07:25] then you asked, like, what kind of challenges? So that was- Yeah. You know, uh, [00:07:30] 2001. So the internet was still-- Basically the, the work that we did that [00:07:35] was really good and fun was helping firms think about how the internet [00:07:40] would, would change services or, or enable them to provide services that they hadn't [00:07:45] done before. [00:07:45] So it was a really good time 'cause the work was kind of innovation, new [00:07:50] services. We worked with Fiat looking at car sharing. Uh, we, we worked [00:07:55] with Orange just on a whole load of like what can you do with mobile telephones. [00:08:00] Um, we worked with Experian wh-who are this dry business [00:08:05] innovation company, but we helped to, to kind of put a whole load of... [00:08:09] Be-- You [00:08:10] know, we, we were in a meeting with them and, and, and I think Chris said something like, "Well, we don't do [00:08:15] B2B," and we were all kicking him under the table saying, "We, we do now. We do now." So- [00:08:20] Yeah. Um, so that was the, the first phase was a, was a really good fun time of, [00:08:25] um, you know, I guess being the kids in the room who understood the new [00:08:30] technology and could help [00:08:31] Yeah. [00:08:31] Just to give people a context, so at that [00:08:35] time, apps weren't a thing, mobile phones, smartphones weren't even around. [00:08:40] You're five years away from kind of the iPhone dropping, um, at [00:08:45] that point as well. Were businesses still kind of talking about, like, [00:08:50] digital just as a thing? Like, uh, I know it's very hard to reflect back to that kind of period [00:08:55] of time, and the reason why I'm asking that is 'cause it was around that time I graduated, and I [00:09:00] know people were like, "Can you do websites?" [00:09:02] Um, you know, "What'll a website be able to [00:09:05] do?" Like, and people were replicating brochures- Mm-hmm ... you know, and they're just, like, kind of putting it o- [00:09:10] online. The step from that to what you're talking about doing [00:09:15] must have been huge. H- how do you circumnavigate [00:09:20] that kind of conversation to, to get them to, one, think beyond digital, [00:09:25] and then think beyond in, in terms of a service? [00:09:29] That's a nice- So- [00:09:30] That's a nice question, Gerry. So if I backtrack my, my career- Yeah ... sort of [00:09:35] the, the late '90s, I was working for places that were kind of, you know, [00:09:40] early, early dig- early d- digital shops and, um, [00:09:45] making stupid websites like brochureware, making websites. Yeah. We made web- [00:09:48] CD-ROMs or stuff, was it? [00:09:49] [00:09:50] Yeah. We made websites for, like, booze brands that were kind of- ... like [00:09:55] clickable advert- adverts and things. Um- Yeah ... and that, and that was kind of... So that was a bit [00:10:00] too early. And that early, from 2001, the timing was very [00:10:05] nice in that some of these... I, I mentioned Orange. We, we worked for Sony and [00:10:10] Sony Ericsson as well. [00:10:11] Nice. [00:10:11] All these places had these, these kind of, were popping up these [00:10:15] little innovations. So the internet had become mature enough that it wasn't like... We used [00:10:20] to have to tell people that they should put a URL on a billboard or something, you know, like you, the internet is part of your, [00:10:25] your media. Um, but this was a time when it was, it was just [00:10:30] pop- popping up, so the ear- we had all these early adopter clients, you know. [00:10:33] So with- [00:10:34] Yeah ... [00:10:34] with Fiat, [00:10:35] we were working with the advanced concept design team who- Oh, okay, [00:10:39] yeah ... [00:10:39] who would [00:10:40] make concept cars. So we were like, "Okay, what's a connected car? What can that do?" You know, so it was, [00:10:45] it was like a... I was just thinking, you could say it was like, you know how now with [00:10:50] AI, and everybody is like, "We have to do something with this." [00:10:52] It was, it was- Yeah ... at that kind of a moment- I see what you mean ... where you're [00:10:55] not having to push too hard, but... and, and in a way, [00:11:00] if you know, if, if you're kind of plugged into it, it was [00:11:05] very... it was a very easy time to... There were lots of gaps, right? Lots of opportunities- [00:11:10] Yeah ... um, to, to do interesting things. [00:11:12] Yeah, no, I, I, I'm just, I'm seeing the parallels [00:11:15] between right back then with the kind of the web emerging [00:11:20] and where we're at now with AI and then the design discipline, if you want, [00:11:25] kind of thinking about like what's our future like, and how can we provide value back to those [00:11:30] businesses? Yeah. I can see that strand of value giving between, you [00:11:35] know, where you were at in 2001, being able to sell that. [00:11:39] And, [00:11:40] um, one of the things, and I, I don't like selling too much, like, but really demonstrating the [00:11:45] value of it. And it, it wasn't until Janey Maney, like I say, [00:11:50] maybe 2018 when, when I caught up with Mark, Mark Stickthorn, um, [00:11:55] about journey management, and he was talking about, you know, the interconnectedness of all the [00:12:00] layers and, and, and things like this and, and where we're at now with journey management and, [00:12:05] you know, he's got Smaply and there's lots of other competitors in this space as well. [00:12:09] Um, [00:12:10] one of the challenges that I have as a practitioner is we can talk about the theory and how [00:12:15] this all makes sense about how, you know, you've got your parent journey and you've got your sub journeys, and [00:12:20] wouldn't it be great to quote the Beach Boys, um, if we were able to look at all of these [00:12:25] pain point opportunities and quantify them at the ecosystem level- Mm. [00:12:29] And then [00:12:30] maybe even beyond sometimes the ecosystem level and, and you know, you know, at those different levels of [00:12:35] zoom and people are nodding along, and then we're kind of [00:12:40] searching a little bit more for how do you go about doing that, and are there [00:12:45] case studies out there which help, you know, bring that conversation to life so we can point at [00:12:50] others? [00:12:51] And I'm very excited to say, you know, I've got a couple, [00:12:55] but you definitely have one that I wanna speak a little bit more about. Um, [00:13:00] tell me the project and how it came about- Yeah ... um, from, from your [00:13:05] world. [00:13:05] Can I just make a, a link through to the previous thing? So I've sort of seen service [00:13:10] design was very much, uh, in its early years focused on that insight into, [00:13:15] to kind of users and customers and what's their experience- Yeah [00:13:17] with that interaction. And then [00:13:20] we had that nice period of doing innovation work, and then you kind of, we hit a certain point where [00:13:25] the design is only gonna be effective or will be more [00:13:30] effective more often if we can interface with the organization. So I began- Yeah ... started to see jour-journey [00:13:35] management is like service design, um, into- On a score [00:13:39] [00:13:40] i-into an organizat... You know, like how, what, what would, how would you present it to an organization as a capability [00:13:45] that is valuable to them? Yeah. And then, and then yeah, to link to your point, you're right, um, [00:13:50] you know, the promise is wonderful and you can, um, you can... We just had a, a chat with a whole load of [00:13:55] journey management people yesterday, and, uh, you know, they, they got into this whole discussion of level one, [00:14:00] level two, level three, and you know, like how far do you go, and all of, all of these- Yeah [00:14:03] kind of things. So [00:14:05] to answer your [00:14:05] question- Interesting conversations to have. [00:14:07] Yeah, yeah. So, um, back in [00:14:10] 2000, um- We, we got the chance [00:14:15] to work with, um, with the UK Parliament. So, uh- Wow. [00:14:20] It's an int- an interesting case because the customers are quite interesting people in that they're, [00:14:25] uh- [00:14:25] You said two thousand there. [00:14:26] Is that two thousand and twenty you mean? [00:14:27] Sorry, t-twenty twenty. Yeah, back in twenty- Yeah. [00:14:30] Yeah, [00:14:30] yeah. Right. Gotcha. [00:14:30] My, uh, um. So they-- [00:14:35] Parliament obviously has a, a kind of a back office where all the MPs and Lords and Ladies get [00:14:40] supported with, um, basic services like providing them [00:14:45] with, with laptops and, and connectivity. [00:14:47] Yeah. And then the kind of the more esoteric [00:14:50] services that are around the parliamentary record, the library, you know, these, these kind [00:14:55] of ancient things, um, that have existed there in paper form [00:15:00] for ages and, and evolved, you know. Um- Yeah ... the facilitation of committees [00:15:05] and, and, and these kind of things. [00:15:06] And they, they basically had a big problem [00:15:10] in that that organization, um, we, we were [00:15:15] hired by the CTO, so was suffering from significant technology, technical debt. [00:15:20] But, but more from a kind of customer point of view, and particularly the [00:15:25] key customer for the, for this support organization is, is like the Clerk of the [00:15:30] Commons. [00:15:30] So the, the administrative civil servant who is [00:15:35] responsible- Mm ... for the running of, of Parliament. And they were, they were not able to [00:15:40] control what, what was being done, what technology was being [00:15:45] built- Yeah ... what the priorities were. And because you're in a very political environment, [00:15:50] lots of people shouting about what they need and that being- Yeah [00:15:53] the, the most important. [00:15:55] And, and a little digging showed that they, they had a backlog that was, you know, for the [00:16:00] year that was five times the capability that they had. So they, there was [00:16:05] no-- there's no kind of truth and honesty about what was possible. They were [00:16:09] [00:16:10] pro- Yeah ... [00:16:10] they w- what was being promised was, was actually way off the charts of what was, what was [00:16:15] achievable. [00:16:16] To cut to the end point, they, they, they're, they are [00:16:20] now using, um, a journey, [00:16:25] I, I guess a service operating model. So they are o-- they know what services they provide, [00:16:30] and then they're managing them by understanding what journeys those services are made up of. [00:16:35] [00:16:35] Yeah. [00:16:35] And, and they've changed the names. They don't call it journey management, they don't call it service design, [00:16:40] because this is all running within the COO- [00:16:44] Yeah[00:16:45] [00:16:45] down. So it's, it's the operational model that they're using. This is why it was a super, [00:16:50] super, um, case study for us because it's like, okay, they've, they've [00:16:55] adopted this as an operating [00:16:56] model. Okay. [00:16:57] Just, um, I just wanna pause [00:17:00] there and- This work was all led by one of my colleagues, uh, Liz [00:17:05] LeBlanc, who I, so I- Oh, yeah [00:17:05] wanna give her a huge credit for this. Uh, she's- Yeah ... she moved on from Livework, [00:17:10] and the team- Big shout out to Liz. Yeah, the team that worked on it. So- Yeah ... I was there at the beginning and [00:17:15] kind of kept, kept involved. Yeah. But Liz, Liz drove this. Uh- [00:17:18] Okay ... [00:17:19] so for me [00:17:20] it's, it's like it's, it's our... it's one of the best examples of how that promise of this [00:17:25] could be the way that you organize, you organize around services and customers- [00:17:28] and then you plug [00:17:30] that into how do you actually govern your change program. [00:17:34] Nice. [00:17:34] And [00:17:35] just to give the, you know, like the final, uh, trumpet blow, so they [00:17:40] thought this was a five-year program, transformation program- Yeah ... and we ended up [00:17:45] running it in three years and then setting them up for constant- Nice [00:17:49] you know, [00:17:50] ongoing improvement. So reduced their, reduced that change [00:17:55] period and- [00:17:55] Very nice. Yeah. Can I take a step back? Um, one of [00:18:00] the first steps is being able to identify that you are actually [00:18:05] delivering services and what those services are. Yeah. And that's the whole, [00:18:10] um, to me, that's the, the, the emergence. [00:18:12] Once you see that happening, you're like, "Okay, actually, now, now they're starting to [00:18:15] refer to the collection of those activities as one service." Okay? Mm-hmm. So [00:18:20] like I'm wa- I'm watching and listening for those in the calls. How did you do it? I'd love to know. [00:18:25] I, I can talk about how I do it, but no one's interested in me. [00:18:27] You're the guest here- Oh ... like, you know. So [00:18:30] how, how did you guys go about doing that? Like, you know. [00:18:35] [00:18:35] I'm gonna... The, the s- the simple answer is be- we did that because that's what [00:18:40] we do. I mean, like we- Yeah ... we went out, um, and, and [00:18:45] identified which customer groups they have. Uh, so they have, [00:18:50] you know, the MPs and their staff- Mm [00:18:51] and then they have the public who come and visit Parliament, and they [00:18:55] have the press, you know. So we... And then we said, "What services do you provide to these groups?" Um- [00:19:00] Yeah ... and we said, "This is, this is what you do." And they said, "Oh my God, [00:19:05] that's provided a level of clarity that we have never had." So that's the, [00:19:10] the short story. [00:19:11] The- Yeah ... to get to that, we did a, a, a, a, [00:19:15] a kind of corporate therapy [00:19:20] slash, uh, internal insight piece of work where we understood all the things that were causing them pain. [00:19:25] So the, the- Yeah ... again, Liz created these seven vicious cycles that were going on, you know, [00:19:30] so they were, they were project oriented, so they were just, you know, they didn't have... [00:19:34] They [00:19:35] were just running projects. Running Uh, and, and six other things. So there was a- Mm ... [00:19:40] there was a process of sort of understanding and being clear that the problem was quite [00:19:45] significant and systemic. Yeah. But to your point, and I think, I just wanna say that's a [00:19:50] fantastic first question, Gerry, because- If, if [00:19:55] that realization isn't there, if, you know, that we provide services... [00:19:58] I've got a friend, Tom, who works at [00:20:00] JPMorgan, and he's, he's like, "If they don't under- if they don't understand that they're providing [00:20:05] services, then, like, we can't... Moving on is probably [00:20:10] going too fast," right? Yeah. You know, if you haven't understood that, and that you're providing [00:20:15] services, and that that is how you manage value, right? [00:20:17] You, you... I, I sometimes [00:20:20] think if you think about services in really simple senses, you have a product, let's say you have a, a [00:20:25] bank account for Tom's sake, but how do people get to that bank account, [00:20:30] use it well, a- and move on? That's the service. Yeah. Right? And [00:20:35] if that stuff- Absolutely ... if that stuff doesn't exist, you just have a bank account sitting there as [00:20:40] a kind of empty thing. [00:20:40] Absolutely. [00:20:41] Dormant. They're [00:20:42] all, they're all providing services, but if they don't [00:20:45] realize it, then there's a kind of a whole load of, of, um, dark matter , [00:20:50] you know, surrounding- Oh, I, I [00:20:50] love that, yeah ... yeah. A- and it's a really good point. Like, you know, I, [00:20:55] I've used similar things, like Top Tasks is, is one, Gerry McGovern's [00:21:00] framework, to help whittle it down and, and really refine at the language level, like, you know, what, what are you [00:21:05] calling this, and what makes sense? [00:21:07] Uh, and you get that opportunity [00:21:10] to kind of like, you know, hit twice, uh, you're saying, "Well, actually, this is the language of the people." [00:21:15] Um, that's funny, when I was up in Belfast city, and they're going on a, on their [00:21:20] journey at the moment, and, um, myself and yourself have just, you know, r- rekindled a new [00:21:25] part of our, our friendship of, of music. [00:21:28] I think this stuff is like [00:21:30] punk. Uh, I think this is the punk moment of service design. [00:21:35] Um, you, you can coin that and nick it because being able to really identify that [00:21:40] language and bringing it back to the organization and defining this is what a [00:21:45] service is, and it is so punk. It is like, you know, w- we're going back to the, the [00:21:50] grassroots of, of what service design can give an organization. [00:21:54] So it's [00:21:55] an important factor, and, uh, I'm glad that, you know, we've, we've called that point out 'cause trying to [00:22:00] sell something like journey management to an organization that still doesn't [00:22:05] really understand that- Mm. It's kind of, you know, you're wasting your time, uh, [00:22:10] a lot of the time. Um, so- Well, and when, [00:22:13] when you say punk, and [00:22:15] so, so you're saying service design is at the kind of the punk stage [00:22:18] then? [00:22:18] I think there's a punk stage [00:22:20] happening at the moment. Well, it is because I d- I'm doing a lot of the, the kind of the grunt work of getting [00:22:25] organizations in the public space to think about services- Yeah ... and [00:22:30] really reframe the services, and I just, I, I'm into the punk stuff, like, you know, and I like- There's [00:22:34] a, there is- [00:22:35] It's a nice [00:22:35] quote as well [00:22:37] But the... I guess, there's a punk- As a [00:22:40] reaction to the kind of the hippie, um- Yes ... the hippie nirvana [00:22:45] ideology and saying, "Hang on a minute, let's just get down and dirty and- Yeah, that's it ... and make stuff [00:22:50] with what we've got." I [00:22:50] want, I want you to audition as being Sid [00:22:55] Vicious for my band- Yeah ... okay, right? [00:22:56] This is why I'm, I'm bringing you up here, and I'm holding you [00:23:00] accountable on this, as I said, to talk about it. But I think it, it is really going back [00:23:05] to the, the grassroots, um, and really kind of [00:23:10] talking about what matters here and, and, and bringing it back. And I can see, 'cause when I [00:23:15] quoted that the other day in, in Belfast, there were people on LinkedIn talking about saying we are doing punk.[00:23:20] [00:23:20] And I go, "It is kind of punk in some ways to, to fight against, [00:23:25] um, a lot of the, the other noise that's going on in the industry at the moment," like the, [00:23:30] the attraction of going headlong into AI and talking about this stuff, [00:23:35] yet we're not really focusing on what matters. Yeah. I'm like, "Get that stuff [00:23:40] right first before we can start getting- A lot [00:23:42] AI conversations." [00:23:43] I've been, um, [00:23:45] I've been so that, you know, when, when you get designers who get frustrated [00:23:50] with, uh, you know- [00:23:52] Design ... [00:23:53] whether they're being listened, you know, like why, [00:23:55] why don't they get this? Why don't they understand that, you know, this, there's logic, like the, the... I agree [00:24:00] with them, the service design logic is, is sound, but organizations don't see it and- [00:24:04] Yeah [00:24:04] [00:24:05] um, sort of say, "Well, look, it's, what we're doing is counter-cultural," like all the stuff that they've done in [00:24:10] order to, you know, put the silos in place to [00:24:15] divide these things up to be focused on. You know, we're, we're asking them, we're doing, we're [00:24:20] cutting across all that, you know, like, and that's the punk thing- Yeah [00:24:22] right? You're, you're saying, yeah, [00:24:25] kind of let's put aside all of your, all of your, uh, complexity [00:24:30] and, and your vested stuff, and, like, let's just- [00:24:33] Refocus. [00:24:34] [00:24:35] Yeah. [00:24:35] It's also like, um, just to be a little bit of a caveat, I'm not talking about [00:24:40] anarchy, okay, right? Um, but going back to that, so [00:24:45] we're, we're talking about the, the Parliament project. [00:24:48] Um, [00:24:50] what, what do they, what do they refer to it as now? You said an operational model, is that it? [00:24:54] [00:24:55] Yeah, and they talk about value streams. [00:24:57] Value streams, okay. Where you... You [00:25:00] know, we could go through the whole kind of, you know, and then we did a journey on level one and level two, [00:25:05] but what does it look like now in terms of the hierarchical structure? [00:25:08] Because the challenge [00:25:10] there, you know, when you start thinking about a service, um, you know, it tends [00:25:15] to cut across that, that hierarchy, and the, the problem there [00:25:20] that a lot of organizations fit, w- like, well, we're actually gonna have to collaborate an awful lot more There's [00:25:25] more passing the batons, if you want, between those hierarchical verticals i-in [00:25:30] a typical structure. [00:25:31] What does it look like now from their perspectives? 'Cause I know there's other [00:25:35] case studies happening in banks in, in London at the moment where they're, they're, they're shifting. [00:25:40] Yeah. Um, I'd love to understand a little bit more of that journey that went [00:25:45] on that's ... And how you managed those, kind of, the, the, the kind of [00:25:50] collaboration points between teams and, and, and- [00:25:53] I, I think one of the reasons this, [00:25:55] this, um, is a successful story is the size of- Yeah [00:25:58] is the size of the organization. So [00:26:00] Parliament is not a huge organization. Right. Uh, the, the, there's, you know, a few [00:26:05] hundred people who work inside, um- Wow, okay ... that organization. So you're [00:26:10] able to, you know, I guess most of the, most of the journeys that they're looking [00:26:15] at are significant ones, you know? [00:26:16] Yeah. [00:26:17] Um, and they're not- Can you give [00:26:18] me an example of some of [00:26:20] those journeys and services? Yeah, I mean, [00:26:22] the, the ones that we worked on as the, the, the kind [00:26:25] of, you know, the first, you pick your first ones that are high impact and gonna make a [00:26:30] difference. So they were, they're really plonky. So one is around customer support, you know.[00:26:35] [00:26:35] Someone phones up with any, any kind of technical problem. I mean, they're, they're end [00:26:40] user compute in the jargon. Um- [00:26:42] How did you derive those priority ones and priority [00:26:45] twos? [00:26:45] J- through, like, a volume of, volume of- Interesting ... trade [00:26:50] and, and complaints data and, you know, like really- Okay ... [00:26:55] simple things like where are you suf- where are you, where are your users experiencing the most [00:27:00] pain, and where are you experiencing the most cost or failure cost? [00:27:04] Like- [00:27:05] [00:27:05] Okay ... [00:27:05] um, and it was qui- it's kind of quite simple. The other thing with [00:27:10] Parliament is, you know, everybody changes jobs at the same time, so onboarding is quite an interesting [00:27:15] journey 'cause it's like they all start on the same [00:27:18] level. I don't believe you. [00:27:19] Well, you know, [00:27:20] like you have an election and- No, of course. [00:27:22] Yeah ... you have a whole new intake of, of people. The [00:27:25] other, the other interesting thing about this project is it happened during COVID, so the, um- Wow ... you know, [00:27:30] like digital and IT support became more important. There was a little [00:27:35] anecdote about, you know, suddenly... I mean, [00:27:40] folks outside of, of England might not know, but, you know, the, the House of Lords is full of, [00:27:45] of old people who have- [00:27:47] you know, been granted a lordship because they did [00:27:50] some public service or inherited it. Um, they all suddenly had to be able to do their duties [00:27:55] digitally and, and the CTO called me. How did [00:27:57] that happen? Like how did, how did that, that evolve? Because I've- [00:28:00] [00:28:00] Well, suddenly they had to ship out a whole load of laptops and try and get people connected and online [00:28:05] and, and you know, we had a call from the CTO who said, "I've got this problem with, with Dame so and so, [00:28:10] you know, she can't... [00:28:11] I need to help her open her laptop so that we can tell her how to use her [00:28:15] laptop." And it was like a kind of- [00:28:17] I don't... That's, that's... So like [00:28:20] people at that, at that sort of level, um- They obviously have probably assistance [00:28:25] and stuff to do a lot of this stuff for them. [00:28:27] Is that fair? But it, it was COVID. [00:28:28] Everything's- So we [00:28:29] didn't even [00:28:30] have them there, so it was just- [00:28:31] I, well, I did actually, we did say to them, "Sorry, s- sorry, we can't help you [00:28:35] with this [00:28:36] particularly." [00:28:37] You're [00:28:37] on your own. [00:28:40] [00:28:40] Yeah. [00:28:41] Yeah, that's, that's, that's an interesting, uh, anecdote. But [00:28:43] back to your point, um, [00:28:45] 'cause you mentioned one of the banks, and, um, on, on this chat we had the other week, we actually ha- I [00:28:50] had probably that bank, um, represented on the call, and we had a- Yeah [00:28:53] we had a really good chat about [00:28:55] scale of organization. So I think, you know, a lot... I've, I have reflected a [00:29:00] lot of my kind of favorite engagements and stories have come from [00:29:05] this, not the biggest companies in the world, you know, like- [00:29:08] Mm ... [00:29:09] there is a, there's, [00:29:10] there is an interesting thing around s- service design, journey management, and scale. [00:29:14] And when [00:29:15] you, you know, you just, when you, when you get... It's all, I, I wonder whether it's exponential. So we worked with [00:29:20] JP Morgan for a while- Mm ... who are the biggest, you know, bank in the world, and who's just got [00:29:25] so many stakeholders. You know, you think, you get into that whole journey logic of, well, we [00:29:30] can all align around this journey, but they, you know, the number of people who are aligning and, and the [00:29:35] interests that- [00:29:35] Yeah [00:29:35] that go into that just it's, you know, it's- It's extortionate ... [00:29:40] it's maybe not possi- maybe not impossible, but it's a different level of- [00:29:43] Yeah ... [00:29:44] you know, [00:29:45] commitment that they would have to make versus... You know, we've got some nice stories of, of firms where [00:29:50] the, you know, the chief exec has, has got the kind of, you know- [00:29:55] [00:29:55] Mm [00:29:55] the journey architecture, as we call it, you know, the, the full customer relationship, uh, [00:30:00] as a, as a sort of laminated thing in his, in his briefcase. Um, but [00:30:05] they're generally mid-sized [00:30:07] companies. Yeah. Can, can I go back to the, like, [00:30:10] why do they reach out to you in the first place? [00:30:14] Uh, [00:30:15] somebody- [00:30:17] So there's usually one smart person in the organization- Yeah [00:30:19] [00:30:20] who's heard about something. [00:30:20] Yeah, we have a, we have a kind of sense that, [00:30:25] you know... It's a, it's a little, it's a little bit of a frustration in a way. I don't know if we're, we're responsible. 'Cause I said early [00:30:30] on, you know, we're working for these early adopters, it still feels like we're working with early adopters, people who- [00:30:34] Yeah[00:30:35] [00:30:35] wanna make a difference to their organizations. They, they've, they've generally [00:30:40] had some interaction with design, and they understand those kind of first principles around [00:30:45] collaboration- Yeah ... and, uh, you know, engagement with customers and, [00:30:50] um, creativity. So yeah- What- ... someone like that. We need someone like that on [00:30:55] the, on the inside who- [00:30:57] Was this their first kind of [00:31:00] foray into service design within Parliament? [00:31:03] No, they had... So they, [00:31:05] Parliament is, you know, you'll be aware of the, in, in the UK, we have [00:31:10] government digital services, so there are service designers- Mm. ... within government departments. [00:31:15] Uh, they make, they were always at pains to say Parliament is not government. Parliament is where the- [00:31:20] Government is the, the ad- the administration and parliament is the legis- [00:31:25] legislature. [00:31:26] Uh, but they were, obviously they were close to GDS and there, there [00:31:30] were a couple of service designers within parliament when we arrived. Yeah. Um... [00:31:35] [00:31:35] Okay. That's interesting. So you, you've, you've had those early [00:31:40] conversations and, you know, o- one of the questions that I'd like to [00:31:45] kinda ask, and you might say, "Gerry, too much, too much," when it comes to the business [00:31:50] dealing of, you know, telling them about this and exploring it, how did you [00:31:55] cut that deal up over the course of the, the four years? [00:31:59] Yeah. [00:31:59] [00:32:00] Because that's a big thing, um, in my experience of hearing saying, "Well, this is what, what the vision is, but [00:32:05] how do we slice this up?" [00:32:06] Yeah. A, a simple answer is I think there was a [00:32:10] short, let's, uh... I think we called it, [00:32:15] um, a- Discovery I, I would always say it was a sort of strategic [00:32:20] piece. It's like the, the vision- Yeah [00:32:21] so we did, we did, the s- the short piece included that, uh, sort of [00:32:25] vicious cycle, like what is the problem, and it was a vision for how [00:32:30] parliament could be. And it, that revolved around it, you know, in [00:32:35] some ways this is a sort of fancy employee experience project. It's like, what is it like to work here? They, [00:32:40] they did have issues around, you know, just the frustration of, of being somewhere where, [00:32:45] you know- Yeah [00:32:45] the, the, the working environment is, is a little bit broken [00:32:50] and dated. So that- Mm ... the vision was around that, you know, 21st century workplace, all that [00:32:55] kind of stuff. And then the second piece was, was, was [00:33:00] putting a structure and a plan together for the transformation piece. So, you know, [00:33:05] it's like, okay, we need writing a business case with the CTO, [00:33:10] defining the approach. [00:33:10] How are we gonna, you know, how are we gonna actually undertake this, what they- Yeah ... the [00:33:15] transformation? And then after that, you know, once that was funded, you know, I [00:33:20] think it was cut down into slices. Sure. Depend, you know, there were like [00:33:25] annual kind of contracts for us. Yeah. [00:33:27] Um... So a- at [00:33:30] that handoff point, you mentioned there that they, they renamed it and they [00:33:35] called, you know, they called it something else obviously. [00:33:36] But, um, walk me through, you finished [00:33:40] it in, it was a five-year and you, you finished it in three years. Yeah. And the last two [00:33:45] years were really around embedding it. Um, walk me through the, the [00:33:50] adoption and the training pieces that go around this, because people are gonna go, "Oh, yeah, we kind of understand. [00:33:54] [00:33:55] It's, it's just a software. We're using Snappy or whatever it is." Right. Um, "Oh, yeah, it's, that's cool. I [00:34:00] don't, I don't need to do anything else. I'm gonna go back to my day job, and then I also have to do a little bit of service [00:34:05] design for 20 minutes a day." Yeah. That piece, what, what does it [00:34:10] look like? Did you make service designers out of coal, um- [00:34:13] or what, [00:34:15] uh, what, what happened there? [00:34:16] Um, a, a, a kinda classic [00:34:20] Do the first one together, do the second one- Yeah ... [00:34:25] supporting. And this is where we get into sort of [00:34:30] things that are fairly well discussed in journey management. So, you know, j- having journey [00:34:35] owners. And these w- and in this case, all of, all of these people, [00:34:40] um, in terms of journey ownership, were operations people. [00:34:43] So it was people who were [00:34:45] quite close to the, the particular journey, um- Okay ... from a, from a, [00:34:50] a, you know, operational responsibility. And then, you [00:34:55] know, the, so the des- the designers in the, in the place, and they did, um, [00:35:00] they did bring more in, are there as, as kind of experts to [00:35:05] support- Yeah ... activities in there. [00:35:07] Um, so we, we [00:35:10] na- you know, I can't remember exactly what we deployed, but we have a, we have a kind of a starter [00:35:15] model for h- for putting a team around journey management in terms of ownership, stakeholder, [00:35:20] um- Yeah ... contributors, and how you, how you plan that in, and how you [00:35:25] ladder that up. So, you know- Mm ... if you think of a level zero, the [00:35:30] ownership of that is at a, at a executive level. [00:35:33] That's about the [00:35:35] prioritization, you know, that- Yeah ... that level, and then you come down to a, more of a management level, all that kind of [00:35:39] stuff. [00:35:40] Management level. [00:35:40] So a ver- a version of that that, that fit, um, the, [00:35:45] their operations. [00:35:46] C- can I ask, i-i-it seems like a [00:35:50] sort of a, you know, a meaningless question, but the titles that people give [00:35:55] to their roles, was there conversations around there of [00:36:00] service owner? [00:36:01] Um, or did you have product management or project management, [00:36:05] or did you just keep the same language, but you just provided that person [00:36:10] who will be a service owner with the capabilities and the training? [00:36:15] [00:36:15] I have to say, Gerry, I don't, I don't have the specifics for that- On that ... on that. [00:36:20] That's okay. Like, [00:36:20] i-i-it's, the reason where that comes from is when you look at some of the local government [00:36:25] work, um, or even government work that I've done, um, [00:36:30] often what I've found is whenever service design, uh, agencies or practices go in, [00:36:35] um, the, the, the ques- the question comes around is like, are you gonna make more service [00:36:40] designers in here? [00:36:40] Are people gonna change their titles to becoming a service designer? Mm. And, and I mean, [00:36:45] it begs the question is like, you know, what is the outcome that we're trying to achieve here? We're not trying to like, you know, touch [00:36:50] people and kinda go, "You have now been, you know, anointed, uh, a service designer." [00:36:54] It's, [00:36:55] it's not really about that for me. It's really about, like, making people work better, um, a-and the [00:37:00] training. But I just wanted to see if there was any of those kind of conversations that might have been had at [00:37:05] a strategic level. [00:37:06] Yeah.[00:37:10] [00:37:10] Really keen on- [00:37:13] Generally, I think there is ownership of [00:37:15] these things. [00:37:16] Mm. [00:37:16] And what you're saying, what, what I, I hope we're doing is, is kind of [00:37:20] equipping an operational person with a new way [00:37:25] of, of kind of getting a handle on what they're responsible for. [00:37:28] Yeah. And then [00:37:28] service design comes in as [00:37:30] a, a, a capability. [00:37:32] This is something else we discussed in a way. It's like, you know, when [00:37:35] lots of people have service design teams in-house, but they're, they're of limited size and [00:37:40] capability. So- Yeah ... sort of seems to be what works a lot of [00:37:45] times is you use that prioritization to say, "Okay, I'm gonna deploy my service design team [00:37:50] for these things, and then I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna provide the journey logic [00:37:55] to- Mm [00:37:55] to ops teams to use to their best capability- Yeah ... in the day-to-day." [00:38:00] Um, and then, you know, they can kind of internally hire the [00:38:05] service designers when it's- [00:38:06] Okay ... [00:38:06] requires the lifting. Um, I've got a, a nice [00:38:10] little related topic, though, 'cause we, we've been doing quite a lot of work in the NHS. Um, [00:38:15] and the, the, the client we had there who was a CTO [00:38:20] as well, um, he, he identified that in the [00:38:25] NHS they have a role which is like a quality lead, which is about- Mm-hmm [00:38:28] you [00:38:30] know, qua-quality in, in healthcare is this com-complex thing around, you [00:38:35] know, clinical but also process quality. And he found that those, [00:38:40] those people were very good to kind of be hybrid- Yeah ... service designers. [00:38:45] Um, so fitting it in with, I guess, what the, what the standards [00:38:50] of the organization are, what, you know, what, what's really embedded in terms of standards [00:38:55] is an interesting thought. [00:38:56] Yeah. No, it's, it's a conversation that I think more and [00:39:00] more people are having as they adopt this. Like, what does it look like the operational model [00:39:05] that sits around it? So you're seeing a little more like a center of, of excellence within service design within the [00:39:10] organization that- Yeah ... like a hub and spoke kinda model that goes out, um, delivers- I [00:39:15] think I'm, [00:39:15] I'm sort of thinking about is a separation of service design as a, [00:39:20] uh, you know, an, a, well, journey management as part of that as a [00:39:25] organizational thing that people understand and, and are involved in. [00:39:28] And then the service designer is someone who's [00:39:30] actually got the, the specific toolkit and skill set to- [00:39:35] Yeah ... you know, to do those core ac-- core things that service designers do. And I think asking, [00:39:40] asking people who haven't been trained to do, like, really high quality [00:39:45] research work or concept development or, you know, is, is pushing it too hard. [00:39:48] Like, let's provide them with [00:39:50] that kind of like, let's almost say design school skill, skill set and value that, right? That's, [00:39:55] that's not something that anybody can do. Um- Yeah ... but they can all be involved in the service design [00:40:00] activity, which is clearly a collective thing. Yeah. And back to your earlier point [00:40:05] Requires them all to understand they're involved in service [00:40:08] Y- 100%.[00:40:10] [00:40:10] Yeah. [00:40:10] What does it look like, Ben, um, in the future? Like, as [00:40:15] governments... And I want you to paint the picture. I'm giving you the brush here. You got any color of paint that you [00:40:20] want to use on this canvas. Right. But what does it look like if government and governments [00:40:25] adopted journey management? What kind of future would that [00:40:30] give for service designers working in the organization, do you [00:40:35] think? [00:40:35] Right. Can I reframe it a little bit? [00:40:39] Yeah, go ahead. [00:40:40] Reframe it. [00:40:40] So I think, what does it look like if, if governments really understood [00:40:45] the, the service that they're providing? [00:40:47] Mm-hmm. [00:40:47] How would that, um, [00:40:50] s- stop them being so stupid about the way they go about policy? [00:40:55] [00:40:55] Exactly. I mean, that, that, that's, that's the, [00:41:00] the trajectory of the question. [00:41:01] And then how do they, how does that, how does that [00:41:05] kind of manifest at, um, at the next level? So- [00:41:07] Yeah ... [00:41:07] to illustrate, um, again, in [00:41:10] England last year we had, uh, the, uh, the government tried to change the [00:41:15] way the, the benefits system works, um, trying to reduce the [00:41:20] cost of, of disability benefits. [00:41:23] Oh, yeah. And, [00:41:23] and then it all got thrown out be- [00:41:25] in parliament by, uh, politicians because there was this kind of, you know, national [00:41:30] outcry. [00:41:31] Um, and I, I did write a piece to say, "Look, would it have [00:41:35] made a difference," this sort of counterfactual, "had this been done in a desi-" you [00:41:40] know, like, we, this is a service we provide. It's to support people. But actually, you know, [00:41:45] the, it's a wider service about helping people live, live a, live [00:41:50] well, which might mean finding the right kind of work for them. [00:41:54] Yeah. [00:41:54] [00:41:55] If, if this kind of policy was d- was designed, we might then come up [00:42:00] with a proposal that people have been involved in, um, you know, [00:42:05] understand there's been a public discussion about it. Yeah. We're able to tell stories about what, what we're trying to [00:42:10] achieve for people and how we're gonna get there, rather than just shut off benefits and things like that.[00:42:15] [00:42:16] I, I believe that would be more likely su- s- [00:42:20] successful. Yeah, I [00:42:21] know. I mean, going back to the punk- [00:42:24] [00:42:25] Yeah ... [00:42:25] piece, like, if you imagine that this hyper-transparent [00:42:30] operational piece within government existed- Yeah ... I mean, [00:42:35] this is where, you know, we start moving into the w- into the world of like, you know, [00:42:40] being able to apply more equitable services and inclusive services, and [00:42:45] it just provides the scaffolding for, for the real work.[00:42:50] [00:42:50] Yeah. And then if you- I mean, the ne- the next 25 years of work Yeah, [00:42:53] that's the real work. And then if you, if you [00:42:55] connect it to journey, so let's say you have somebody who, um, [00:43:00] you know, has, has suffered some kind of disability or- Temporary or otherwise. [00:43:05] What's the journey they go on with government to get them to an out- and what's the out- outcome that [00:43:10] we're- [00:43:11] Exactly [00:43:11] collectively pursuing? Um, so you start at that kind of [00:43:15] story level, and then, and then you- Move through it ... you move through it. Um- [00:43:20] [00:43:21] I mean, this is, this is why I keep on coming back to that [00:43:25] punk statement. Yeah. Um- It, it just feels we're at this point, and th- this is why, like, I'm [00:43:30] still kind of, like, doing this podcast. [00:43:32] It, it feels like there's a, there's a real [00:43:35] mo- momentum happening here, and for anyone who's listening to this episode and they're like, [00:43:40] "What the is journey management?" Okay, like, if you go to thisishcd.com, by the way, [00:43:45] there's a free course that myself and Mark, and m- who knows, maybe Ben might make an [00:43:50] appearance in the next version of that, like, if I can wrangle him into it. [00:43:52] I'll do it after this call. You can take a [00:43:55] free course on introduction to journey management. Just go on there, all you have to do is put [00:44:00] your email in. That's all we're asking. You go onto the platform, and you watch myself and Mark talk about [00:44:05] how to set up the foundations for a journey management system in your organization.[00:44:10] [00:44:10] Um, Ben, you've also written ... Isn't there a white [00:44:15] paper that, uh, we, we discussed? There was something else around [00:44:20] sustainability. [00:44:20] Well, so they, they ... Yeah, someone ... The Livework team, actually the Brazil [00:44:25] team have a white paper- Yeah ... on journey management, uh, which if you're happy to- [00:44:30] [00:44:30] Yeah, absolutely, Ben. Yeah. If I'm happy to? [00:44:32] Completely, like, you know. [00:44:34] Yeah. [00:44:34] [00:44:35] Is that, uh, downloadable on the Livework website? [00:44:39] I don't know. [00:44:40] I [00:44:41] don't know yet. Well, what, what I'll do is I'll discuss it with Ben [00:44:45] off camera. Yeah. We'll work out the logistics, and I'll put a link in the show notes [00:44:50] for people to access that. Yeah, yeah. Now, look, folks, we're, we're coming towards this episode, the end of this [00:44:55] episode, Ben, and I, I wanted to first of all thank you, 'cause I know you're coming on here. [00:44:59] We don't script these [00:45:00] conversations. We roughly do bullet points of what we wanna cover off. But if you wanna follow [00:45:05] Ben on Ben's journey in Livework, go ahead on, you know, into LinkedIn, [00:45:10] connect with Ben. If you wanna have strategic conversations about what this looks like in your organization, you, [00:45:15] you can't look further than Livework and Ben Rees and, and the team over there.[00:45:20] [00:45:20] I look to them. I, I do, uh, similar work, and I [00:45:25] look to these guys as being the pioneers. So it's fantastic to have you on [00:45:30] the episode, uh, talking about this, and if people wanna reach out [00:45:35] and have those conversations, is LinkedIn one of your preferred channels? LinkedIn is fine. Or the [00:45:39] web- That's good. [00:45:40] Yeah. [00:45:40] Is it? Yeah, LinkedIn, you're, you're, you're still big in, 'cause we obviously don't like that one here. [00:45:45] No. We, we don't, we don't promote, um, you know- And I'm doing X [00:45:50] with my arms here if you're, if you're watching it. Um, but we'll, we'll send people [00:45:55] to you on your LinkedIn and, and maybe can we put your email address in the show notes as well- Yeah [00:45:58] if people wanna reach out and [00:46:00] ask questions? 'Cause I still think email is, is, is king, like, you know? Anything else [00:46:05] you wanted to give a shout-out to before we wrap it up, Ben? [00:46:07] No, I'm very... I'm just motivated to say Anarchy in the [00:46:10] UK, Gerry- ... as I sign off. [00:46:12] I can see this one being I can see this [00:46:15] one taking off and, you know, we're gonna be talking about punk and who [00:46:20] knows, maybe we'll get some AI generation tools to- If any, [00:46:23] if anyone is, is, like, triggered by [00:46:25] the, or, like, intrigued, let's say, by the punk thing, I wrote a, a, a kind of post [00:46:30] called, um, Gonzo Service Design, which I think is in the same spirit, so.[00:46:35] [00:46:35] Yeah, no, absolutely. Is that, is that on LinkedIn? [00:46:37] That's on Medium or somewhere on the internet. It's somewhere [00:46:40] like- [00:46:40] Okay. Well, I'll try and, I'll try and get a link for that and I'll, I'll put it into the show notes as well. Um, [00:46:45] but absolutely, Ben. Listen, look, thanks so much for your time. I know you're a busy person, so I really appreciate you coming [00:46:50] on here and sharing your information, and thanks for sharing the case study as well. [00:46:53] It's very, very, very, very valuable [00:46:55] for everyone who's listening to the podcast, so I appreciate it. You're [00:46:58] very welcome. Thank you for having me, Gerry. [00:47:00] It's been [00:47:05] fun.