Why People Leave People, Not Organisations — with Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This Is Hate cd. My name is Jerry s Scion [00:00:05] and I'm a human-centered, serves design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin Ireland. Now, [00:00:10] before we jump into this episode and tell you who our guest is, this is quite an emotional, uh, [00:00:15] intro for me 'cause this is the last time that I'm gonna be recording in this space.[00:00:20] [00:00:20] Gerry Scullion: I've produced, this is Hate city, out of my attic for the last seven years, almost to [00:00:25] the day in this. Space, and I'll be moving to a new premises in the coming weeks, but I just wanted to [00:00:30] give it a bit of shout out to this space. Its providers with lots of interesting conversations over the years. [00:00:35] But today I am joined with Louise Denison Nesse, director of Mental Health and Wellbeing at [00:00:40] EHS International. [00:00:41] Gerry Scullion: Louise spends her days inside organizations helping [00:00:45] leaders and teams navigate stress. Burnout culture and everything that sits under the big [00:00:50] umbrella of wellbeing at work. This is a conversation that's gonna be fascinating for a lot of us 'cause we [00:00:55] all probably feel and relate to a lot of those terms and in this episode we talk about what [00:01:00] psychological safety actually feels like when it's present and how unclear [00:01:05] roles, poor communication and toxic high performers, quietly damaged [00:01:10] teams and why people so often leave people, not organizations. [00:01:14] Gerry Scullion: We also get [00:01:15] into the inner stuff of negativity bias. Why so many of our thoughts [00:01:20] lean negative and how busyness and stress can become addictive and some [00:01:25] very practical ways to build healthier boundaries with work and technology. Here, here [00:01:30] we reference, uh, lots of other conversations that we've had on the podcast, and we speak [00:01:35] about things like simple habits like walking rest and leaving your phone in another room. [00:01:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:01:40] Small little pieces of that are very, very powerful, and by the end of this episode, you'll have a clear sense of what [00:01:45] you can control, what you can. I'd how to start protecting your own psychological safety at [00:01:50] work. If you enjoy this conversation, please do leave a like and subscribe. If you're watching this on [00:01:55] YouTube, please share with your team. [00:01:56] Gerry Scullion: It helps us find new listeners and helps us grow. We're an independent [00:02:00] podcast. I know you're gonna love Louise. Please do check out Louise on on LinkedIn. They're a fantastic [00:02:05] person. I really enjoyed speaking with them, but let's jump straight into this episode.[00:02:10] [00:02:15] [00:02:17] Gerry Scullion: All right. Louise [00:02:20] Denison Nessy, I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. Uh, maybe for our [00:02:25] listeners, we'll start off, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do, Louis. [00:02:29] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Okay. [00:02:30] Thanks Jerry. Nice to be here. Uh, my own name, uh, is Louise, as you said. I'm from Na der [00:02:35] uh, in [00:02:36] Gerry Scullion: new. For anyone who's [00:02:37] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: not tomorrow. [00:02:38] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: AB absolutely. Sorry. In Ireland? [00:02:40] Yeah. Uh, lived in Cork for 12 years, um, and I'm the director of Mental [00:02:45] Health and Wellbeing at hs. Um, all things mental health and [00:02:50] wellbeing basically. [00:02:51] Gerry Scullion: Ah, fantastic. Now, when we were speaking before, [00:02:55] um, a number of weeks ago, we were talking about psychological safety in organizations, right?[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Gerry Scullion: And for a lot of our listeners, they're, they hear this word, this phrase [00:03:05] being used, and they're like, well, you know, I feel psychologically safe in, in my work. [00:03:10] Workplace. But from your perspective, what does psychological safety look like [00:03:15] and feel like, uh, when it's truly present in an organization? [00:03:20] [00:03:20] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So, I mean, there's so many ways in which you could answer that, but I [00:03:25] suppose one of the things that springs to mind is you can, [00:03:30] people can make mistakes fail, put their hand up, own [00:03:35] it, and, and feel safe and feel that their job is still safe. [00:03:39] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Feel [00:03:40] like they're not gonna get punished for it. Um, and [00:03:45] one of the things in organizations is the ideal is to create an environment where people [00:03:50] can, can fail and learn as opposed to always getting it right [00:03:55] or fear of getting it wrong. [00:03:57] Gerry Scullion: So, who, who manages, um, [00:04:00] psychological safety? Like who's responsible for ensuring that it's [00:04:05] present? [00:04:05] Gerry Scullion: I [00:04:05] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: think there's a combination. Um, it depends on the organization, Jerry. 'cause the [00:04:10] organizations that can be Yeah. You know, heads of hr, uh, director of [00:04:15] culture, um, you know, director of people. Um, but it, it's working with the senior leadership team as well, [00:04:20] um, and creating an environment from the top down. [00:04:24] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Right. [00:04:25] Um, and embedding it, I suppose, into the organization as well, um, where [00:04:30] people know, I suppose, what's expected of them. [00:04:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:04:33] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And reminding people what good [00:04:35] practice is as well and having that everywhere within the organization, you know, [00:04:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:04:40] in your experience, um, what are the kind of behaviors that.[00:04:45] [00:04:45] Gerry Scullion: Departments or people who are responsible like leadership, [00:04:50] um, responsible for ensuring that their psychological safety throughout the organization, like any [00:04:55] leaders that I've ever worked with, they're not intentionally going out there saying, gonna make [00:05:00] this, gonna make the organization unsafe. But what are the kind of behaviors that [00:05:05] you see leadership doing that can erode psychological safety over time?[00:05:10] [00:05:10] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, well, one of the big issues in a lot of organizations that I work with is a [00:05:15] lack of communication, so people don't know what's going on. Sometimes as well, there [00:05:20] can be a lack of clarity of roles, so people. You know, don't know like how many [00:05:25] people can honestly say they're doing what their job description says they're doing. [00:05:29] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Mm-hmm. [00:05:30] Um, also as well, if people are reporting to different people, you know, unofficially, [00:05:35] um, sometimes it can cause problems departmentally as well. 'cause people, you know, [00:05:40] um, are trying to please their line manager, but they're also being pulled in different directions, [00:05:45] um, different priorities, et cetera. [00:05:46] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, but with senior [00:05:50] management and even middle management as well. They often, in fairness to them, don't have the [00:05:55] time to allocate to things like wellbeing and psychological safety. [00:06:00] But the thing about it's, if people are treated fairly and [00:06:05] treated with respect, you're on their, I mean, if that, you know, if they work towards their [00:06:10] values and are reminded of their values and get the training to be able.[00:06:15] [00:06:16] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I suppose lead with those values in mind, um, and [00:06:20] it's embedded within and they have time to do it. One of the big things with job design is [00:06:25] allowing time for middle management and senior leadership to [00:06:30] incorporate some of the KPIs that will go with wellbeing. [00:06:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, like the, [00:06:35] the pressures that people are being put under, uh, in their day-to-day jobs to do more with less [00:06:40] is one of the factors that I keep on hearing more and more about when I'm speaking to designers and [00:06:45] organizations. [00:06:46] Gerry Scullion: What. What can organizations [00:06:50] do about that, like when they're, the pressure is so great and so immense, [00:06:55] um, and that surely has an effect in psychological safety where they feel like there's a case of, [00:07:00] I mean, overworked here, I'm not being listened to. What advice do you give to those [00:07:05] organizations and those leaders that are listened to the podcast and what can they do to ensure that [00:07:10] they can manage that better? [00:07:11] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, well, there's a, a combination [00:07:15] of things. Make sure that anyone that leads a team is trained, um, [00:07:20] in mental health and wellbeing on how to handle those tough conversations. Yeah, and I would have a, [00:07:25] a lot, my, my heart kind of goes out to sometimes middle managers because they're getting it from [00:07:30] above and below and they, they're, you know, they're really under pressure. [00:07:34] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You don't [00:07:35] wanna have the conversations and how to navigate them. Um, also it's looking [00:07:40] at your metrics. So, you know, sometimes people say, oh, wellbeing, it's all fluffy and whatever. But it is, [00:07:45] unless you have metrics, measurable outcomes that you can try and [00:07:50] implement in your organization. Looking at, you know, retention of staff, [00:07:55] looking at percentage of managers that are maybe mental health first aid trained.[00:08:00] [00:08:01] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um. Whether, um, people feel [00:08:05] safe within, you know, their organization and like, can they talk to their line managers, et cetera. [00:08:10] Um, looking at if there's turnover in a d specific department, for example, [00:08:15] you. Um, some digging around as to what's going on there. [00:08:20] Um, retaining talent. If you're not retaining talent, the first people out the [00:08:25] door in organizations is your top talent if you're not treating them right. [00:08:29] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Like people generally [00:08:30] leave people as opposed to organizations. [00:08:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I love that phrase. [00:08:34] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: The la [00:08:35] the, um, your line manager can have more impact on your [00:08:40] mental health than your partner. Yeah. So if you don't have a good relationship with your line [00:08:45] manager, um, it massively impacts, you know, your day-to-day life in a, in [00:08:50] a job, you know? [00:08:52] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. But there is a lot of things like training, looking at metrics, [00:08:55] and then looking at the information they receive. Like sometimes people say, oh, you know, [00:09:00] we can't get people to fill out surveys. I was only talking about this this morning with a company, um, a [00:09:05] large company, and I was like, well, you know, some of the things that work quite well is [00:09:10] if you. [00:09:11] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Ask your employees to fill out, um, a survey. [00:09:15] Bring them all, like do a town hall, get everyone to the canteen, have printed copies out for everyone, have [00:09:20] coffee and maybe pastries. If, if the company can afford it, give them half an hour that's, fill that out, [00:09:25] and then have a coffee before you go back to work. [00:09:27] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So allocate a specific amount of time for them to actually [00:09:30] do that. And then. Listen to the take on board. You know, you asked, [00:09:35] we heard we delivered and advertise it throughout your organization. Mm-hmm. So [00:09:40] a little bit of transparency as well is, [00:09:44] Gerry Scullion: [00:09:45] um. I've, I've got both personal experience, um, [00:09:50] working as a full-time employee, but, um, in instances [00:09:55] where people see, um, sort of, uh, like lots of [00:10:00] toxic toxicity within an organization and they raise that to senior management and [00:10:05] nothing happens, um, even if there's mental wellbeing [00:10:10] training in there and there's mental health training in there. [00:10:12] Gerry Scullion: What in your experience is [00:10:15] lying behind that? Um, like we, we can talk about the importance of having training. [00:10:20] Agreed, totally. But when you see toxic behavior living on in [00:10:25] organizations, um, what, what are the options available to people, um, based [00:10:30] on your experience and expertise? [00:10:32] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Well, when [00:10:35] in organizations, when there are. [00:10:37] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, toxic individuals that aren't [00:10:40] addressed and then often you get back, you know, but they're a top performer or whatever. Um, there [00:10:45] are, there's some research out there where, um, you have the, it's the [00:10:50] Marines, um, the top Marines in the, um, army in America, uh, are [00:10:55] Navy Seals or whatever They are one of the top trainers. [00:10:58] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Said that you can have, [00:11:00] um, top performers, but there's a lack of, you know, trust, people don't trust and [00:11:05] whatever they, they never get picked for, um, marine teams. They're asking what the criteria was to [00:11:10] pick them. Wow. And pick the top people. Um, and it's the people with [00:11:15] medium to top performance, even low performance, but high trust. [00:11:18] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Right? So [00:11:20] when you, when that's not matched. So if you have a top performer who's very, very [00:11:25] toxic, it's like, you know. Having a bad apple in, [00:11:30] you know, in a rupo, it, it, it [00:11:32] Gerry Scullion: absolutely, [00:11:32] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: yeah. It, it, um, it [00:11:35] spreads. And then if people think that kind of behavior is acceptable, well other people, [00:11:40] again, it, it can impact their behavior as well. [00:11:42] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And, and it, it creates a really [00:11:45] not a nice environment for people to be in. Yeah. And if you, if you have an environment that people are, [00:11:50] don't wanna be in, eventually you, you lose for both people. [00:11:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, and [00:11:55] absolutely because you kind of understand that. Certain organizations [00:12:00] produce a certain type of individual in the way they think and the way they're, they're kind of [00:12:05] formed professionally speaking obviously. [00:12:07] Gerry Scullion: Um, so you kind of expect that kind of [00:12:10] behavior from certain organizations 'cause they kind of live by those values even if they're not the [00:12:15] values that are on the wall. That's one of the things that I. Kinda like [00:12:20] you see all, like if you look at something like Meta, you know, they're like, oh, connecting [00:12:25] the world, but they don't have anything up there and destroying democracy or any of these other [00:12:30] interesting and more fundamental pieces, um, on the wall. [00:12:33] Gerry Scullion: But that, that's what I would perceive [00:12:35] an organization like Meta to be, whereas different. [00:12:39] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Exactly. I [00:12:40] mean, it's, it's back to, you know, are we aligning like even a director of culture in an [00:12:45] organization? Would make sure that make the company is working in, in alignment with their [00:12:50] values. You know, if, if one of your values is trust. [00:12:52] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and [00:12:55] you, there's no psychological safety. Like, I mean, you know, we have a serious problem here. Like you will not [00:13:00] retain good people. You'll not retain, you'll lose good people. And the [00:13:05] cost of retaining new people is too expensive to do that. So, I [00:13:10] mean, with organizations it's always down or nearly always down to what it costs. [00:13:14] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And I, and I [00:13:15] respect that. You know, I have my own business for 10 years. I, I do respect that. [00:13:18] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:13:19] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: But [00:13:20] it's easier to retain people and look after them. Then new hires [00:13:25] and the whole process of recruitment and starting training again and [00:13:30] losing talent and, and maybe having the same problem in the future as well. [00:13:33] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You know, you have to look, your people are your [00:13:35] greatest asset. [00:13:36] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. You mentioned when we were kind of doing [00:13:40] pre-chat for this, this podcast around self-awareness and one of the pieces [00:13:45] that. Presumably you, you cover whenever you're, you're training organizations [00:13:50] is creating those spaces for people to reflect on their own kind of [00:13:55] makeup and how they actually see the world and what they can bring to the workplace.[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Gerry Scullion: Um, what do you think is so critical about, [00:14:05] um, understanding our thoughts as human beings rather than just [00:14:10] reacting to them? [00:14:11] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So one of the things I am really passionate about [00:14:15] covering is teaching people to understand how they think. Um, according to the [00:14:20] National Science Foundation, 80% of our thoughts for your average person are naturally negative, [00:14:25] and 95% of those thoughts are repetitive. [00:14:28] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Ah, [00:14:30] 80% are negative and 95% are repetitive interest. So we have a [00:14:35] negativity bias. Um, and that's thanks to our ancestors being on high alert for [00:14:40] dangers and whatever. And Thank you ancestors. We're here. Yeah. Survived. [00:14:44] Gerry Scullion: That's just [00:14:45] Ireland. Is that globally? [00:14:46] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: No, no. It's, it's, it's global. Um, [00:14:48] Gerry Scullion: it's a global, it's a human instinct.[00:14:50] [00:14:50] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. I, and, and we're, we, were, we're designed to look out for dangers and we've become [00:14:55] hyper aware. [00:14:56] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:14:56] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And unfortunately this doesn't really serve us, [00:15:00] um, in today's world. And what happens is, you know, it's, you end up either [00:15:05] becoming, um, well, I use the term negative Nancys, no offense to any Nancys [00:15:10] out there, or Debbie Downers or Debbie's. [00:15:12] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, I, and I just mean you can either become one of [00:15:15] those people or be surrounded by those people and the impact that can have on your mental health and [00:15:20] actually. Your functioning in general, your thought, your logical brain, your prefrontal cortex [00:15:25] is huge. It's very detrimental. Yeah. It shrinks the front of your brain that your prefrontal cortex, [00:15:30] if you are constantly negative. [00:15:32] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yes. So teaching people to [00:15:35] understand how they think, um, understand their stressors, um, understand [00:15:40] their reactions. [00:15:41] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. [00:15:41] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And, and reminding people as well, I suppose, of what is in [00:15:45] their control and what's not in their control. And other people's behaviors, [00:15:50] thoughts, attitudes, are not something that's in your control. [00:15:53] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:15:54] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You know, [00:15:54] Gerry Scullion: I remember [00:15:55] in 2008, this was the first time that I was starting to, I guess, [00:16:00] question my own mind, and I, I've been seeing a psychologist for over 12 [00:16:05] years, and one of the most remarkable kind of [00:16:10] moments in Eckhart's first book was the. There's the [00:16:15] shimmering light through the, the window and being able to separate your thoughts from your identity.[00:16:20] [00:16:20] Gerry Scullion: Um, and I really resonated with that at the time, um, and not [00:16:25] seeing my thoughts as the truth. Um, so how, [00:16:30] what advice do you give to people other than read Eck, [00:16:35] which.[00:16:40] [00:16:41] Gerry Scullion: That through to people in an organization that may be, 'cause [00:16:45] that took me a long time. It took me, you know, probably a couple of years to really connect those two [00:16:50] dots. And when you're being asked to train an organization and you probably have maybe 20, 30, [00:16:55] 40 people in a room and they're like, oh, again, gonna be talking with that hippie dippy stuff.[00:17:00] [00:17:00] Gerry Scullion: How do you get over that challenge? Because it is, it is like sort of mind blowing and there's a [00:17:05] mind shift there that can occur when you connect those two. And you start to really question your own [00:17:10] thoughts and question the truth, [00:17:12] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I think. How [00:17:12] Gerry Scullion: do you do it? [00:17:13] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. I think [00:17:15] what like one of the big kinda aha moments for me was when I realized that our [00:17:20] thoughts are not always true. [00:17:22] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Our thoughts are not always true. And understanding [00:17:25] that we as humans will constantly look for the logic to understand things. Yeah. Your [00:17:30] thoughts in turn create your emotions, which in turn can have a knock on effect on [00:17:35] your behaviors. Yeah. Um, and when we separate, I, [00:17:40] I suppose as well identifying, you know, people around us [00:17:45] if they are people that we need to implement boundaries with as well. [00:17:49] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Because if [00:17:50] somebody is constantly negative, um, like if somebody's stressed, like I, the amount [00:17:55] of, um, groups I would have, and I'd ask a question like, you know, how many people here have been stressed in the last [00:18:00] week and month and year, whatever. [00:18:03] Gerry Scullion: You're [00:18:03] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: asking me question? [00:18:05] Absolutely. Um, and with that, you know, when people are stressed, [00:18:10] they, the stress hormone cortisol, um, can literally [00:18:15] leave your pores and enter someone else's pores physically. [00:18:19] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, so [00:18:20] if you work in close or live in close proximity to someone who's always stressed, you can [00:18:25] physically absorb their stress. So remember, [00:18:28] Gerry Scullion: but also a little bit. [00:18:30] I know [00:18:32] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: there's that too. There's that too. But I think as to, [00:18:35] just to be aware that, you know, there are things that are really good [00:18:40] for our mental health and our thoughts. [00:18:42] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, like when people are struggling, I always say [00:18:45] to them, yeah, get back, get back to basics. You know, look at, look at your water. Look at your [00:18:50] nutrition. Eat crap. Expect to feel like crap. My, I have this fight in my teenagers daily. My skin's really [00:18:55] bad. I need X cream. And I'm like, no, you need to stop eating crap. [00:18:58] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, you know, [00:19:00] nutrition, sleep. Look at your sleep, look at your sleep patterns. Look at your screen time before your sleep. [00:19:05] Um, look at your exercise. Look at your, um, you know, exposure to [00:19:10] sunshine. Yeah. Like when we are looking for the negative. [00:19:15] Every situ we'll find negative in, in every situation. [00:19:18] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:19:19] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: [00:19:20] Um, and you keep looking and, and it grows, you know, the, the line, the neurons that fire [00:19:25] together wire together. [00:19:26] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yes. So your brain and the deep grooves, um, the more you do [00:19:30] something, the deeper the groove in your brain. It becomes like your default Yeah. System. So [00:19:35] when people are like that all the time, I suppose it's educating them [00:19:40] to create an awareness and like. You can bring a horse [00:19:45] to water after that, it's up to them, but at least if they have the education [00:19:50] piece, they can make a conscious decision. [00:19:51] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You know? In high performing [00:19:55] teams, as you mentioned there, there's, for whatever reason, like there's a, a killer [00:20:00] be killed attitude to, um, you know, getting ahead in, in [00:20:05] this world. Like, you know, and for a lot of people in organizations, especially sales [00:20:10] organizations or designer innovation teams, or under immense pressure to get stuff out in a certain timeframe.[00:20:15] [00:20:15] Gerry Scullion: Um, and when you go in and you, you know, presumably you do this. Brilliant training, [00:20:20] um, on, um, mental health and wellbeing and [00:20:25] some of the daily practices that we speak about. There's like this, these two different worlds. They're, they're [00:20:30] not in kind of unison with each other where there's, you know, fast, you know, it's the, [00:20:35] it's up for the, you know. [00:20:36] Gerry Scullion: The kind of the fight attitude. And then there's the other side of it [00:20:40] over here where organizations where you have to be vulnerable, you have to be like, well, I'm gonna go into my space here and I'm gonna [00:20:45] practice some mindfulness, or, uh, I'm gonna do some meditation. And they're kind of in [00:20:50] conflict. How, how can organizations. [00:20:53] Gerry Scullion: Enable that to [00:20:55] become the norm as opposed to, like, I hears, as you said, Debbie Downer, they're [00:21:00] gonna go over to do their mindfulness, they're into all of that stuff. That stuff seems to be the bit, [00:21:05] that mindset, I mean, is, is what's holding the organization back. [00:21:09] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Um, [00:21:10] so it's, it's, I suppose, um, it's the mindset piece, isn't it, really? [00:21:14] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I mean, [00:21:15] there's, you know, there's growth mindsets and there's closed mindsets. And if people aren't. [00:21:20] Aware that maybe they have some unlearning to do. [00:21:23] Gerry Scullion: Mm. [00:21:23] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You can't teach them. [00:21:25] So wh when you have groups, like when I, when sometimes people say to me, you know, Louise, [00:21:30] how do you embed, you know, this idea from within the [00:21:35] organization, not just do a training session. [00:21:36] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And I'm like, training sessions only part of the process. You need to [00:21:40] get buy-in from senior leadership teams. And sometimes it's just identifying [00:21:45] one member of the senior leadership team. Um, and getting them to fight [00:21:50] your corner and like, you know, turning up to wellbeing events like me, you know, it's [00:21:55] looking at, um, it's a balance, you know, when you're [00:22:00] like in a high pressured environment. [00:22:02] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um. It's been able to [00:22:05] identify what your boundaries are. [00:22:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:22:07] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: sure. Um, when is enough, enough [00:22:10] presenteeism taking their work home, you know, not getting, there's seven different types of rest, not getting enough [00:22:15] rest. Um, people are on screens till they close their eyes at night and then they wonder why they can't sleep.[00:22:20] [00:22:20] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You know, people watch the news before they go to bed and then wonder why they're having nightmares, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:22:25] And we talk about the negative stuff, and yet we're feed like whatcha feeding your brain with, it's like [00:22:30] your body, if you continue. To feed your brain [00:22:35] with stressful, negative stuff. [00:22:38] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:22:38] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: The composition of your brain is [00:22:40] gonna be stressed and negative. [00:22:41] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:22:42] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: You know, [00:22:42] Gerry Scullion: so in an organization where [00:22:45] busy and busyness and checking your email and responding to them, and, you [00:22:50] know, all of these kind of habits that are, are [00:22:55] throughout the corporate world, um. Well, what, what do you think is driving [00:23:00] that? [00:23:00] Gerry Scullion: Is, is it a fear-based culture? Um, and what can we do to change that? [00:23:05] [00:23:05] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, [00:23:06] Gerry Scullion: behavior. I mean, not the fear, obviously. [00:23:08] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, [00:23:10] I, I think it ha it has to, um, like [00:23:15] in organizations, it, people have to, you know, [00:23:20] when they're off, they're off. You know, it, it's, it what like there is this [00:23:25] mentality that, you know, and COVID didn't help for that. [00:23:27] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: 'cause we were working for, a lot of us were working from home. [00:23:30] Yeah. You know, will you always have access to your computer and you could always respond and you know, this, this, [00:23:35] like some people, I get emails on Sunday nights, some certain people, you know, in [00:23:40] organizations and, you know, that's their, that's them. [00:23:44] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: [00:23:45] Whereas I know back to what I'm in control of. I'm in control of when I respond. [00:23:50] So I have to create habits that serve me. And [00:23:55] in order to create a ha a successful habit, you attach it to another habit that you do [00:24:00] every day. [00:24:00] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. [00:24:01] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So in organizations, it's, [00:24:05] to be honest with you, Jerry, senior leadership need to practice this kind of stuff. [00:24:09] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: They need to [00:24:10] practice walk, they need education on what to do and how to do it, and then they need to [00:24:15] practice it to show, because. Like some, somebody said to me recently about, [00:24:20] um, you know, they, they were doing all these wellbeing events, but the, um, there's very few [00:24:25] people turning up for them. And I was like, okay, um, who is the most senior person [00:24:30] in the room at the event? [00:24:31] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Oh, none of the senior, senior leadership ever come to those things. I was like, why [00:24:35] not? And they were like, oh, I think they're just too busy. And I was like, you see, that sounds out. A really strong [00:24:40] message to an organization if they're too busy. Middle management kind of go, well, if they're too [00:24:45] busy to go, we're not going because we have our own stuff to do. [00:24:47] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: But at least when they [00:24:50] prioritize [00:24:51] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:24:51] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: This kind of stuff, people kind of take notice. [00:24:55] Yeah. Uh, you can't stick a plaster on a gave wound and like they have to, they have to be [00:25:00] involved in it. Like we all have. Unlearning to do in [00:25:05] work, home, et cetera. You know, the 40 coats analogy, have you come across that? [00:25:09] Gerry Scullion: No. [00:25:09] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: [00:25:10] Um, so 40 coats Wonder Wagon, I dunno if you remember. [00:25:13] Gerry Scullion: You remember that? Yeah. I didn't think you'd be old [00:25:15] enough to remember. Wonder Wagon, but go [00:25:16] on. [00:25:16] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, so, uh, 40 Coats analogy [00:25:20] is basically peeling off the layers that don't suit you and the, [00:25:25] the traditions that maybe you don't like. Right. And keeping the ones that you do [00:25:30] like, and it's the same in a work environment, we, we can choose [00:25:35] like companies need to make money. [00:25:36] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. If they're not productive and they're not earning, they can't pay [00:25:40] the people, they don't have a business. And I fully respect that, but also respecting [00:25:45] that people are an organization's greatest asset is huge. No matter what they [00:25:50] produce, their people are their greatest asset. And if you have a good. [00:25:54] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: [00:25:55] Team and, you know, a, a, a good group predominantly of employees [00:26:00] that feel respected are paid fairly. You know, treat them kindly [00:26:05] like a human being. You, you generally get a, you get it back in spades. The return of [00:26:10] investment is huge, but it, it's sometimes conveying that, because the bottom line is [00:26:15] we need to produce X, we need to sell X. [00:26:17] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: How do we do this? And sometimes [00:26:20] the bigger picture gets lost. You know, um, I, I was reading a, um, [00:26:25] a, a paper there last week about the cleaning staff in a hospital [00:26:30] where, um, instead of them coming in, doing a job, [00:26:35] feeling not particularly part of the, the medical community, um, and [00:26:40] you know, just feeling like they were on the lower end of the scale and, you know, a [00:26:45] little bit invisible, um. [00:26:47] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: They changed the narrative. They showed them that [00:26:50] they were part of the solution to getting people better and they [00:26:55] brought them in. They included them in the entire process. And they said, [00:27:00] what you do when you do it well, helps our patients recover [00:27:05] faster, reduces infection. And when you bring people in and show them [00:27:10] what their part is in an entire process, they feel connected.[00:27:15] [00:27:15] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Sort. [00:27:16] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. They feel connected. And [00:27:17] Gerry Scullion: you find that paper for me 'cause it be, might be something that our [00:27:20] listeners would like to, to read as [00:27:21] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: well. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:27:22] Gerry Scullion: That's kind of very much from [00:27:25] a human-centered design mindset of including people and really understanding [00:27:30] their role in the sequence of recovery. [00:27:32] Gerry Scullion: That would, that would speak to an awful lot of the, the [00:27:35] principles of centered design. So [00:27:37] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: absolutely. [00:27:37] Gerry Scullion: It might be good. If we get it in time, we'll [00:27:40] put it in the show notes folks. Um, so, well, what do you think would [00:27:45] it take for us individually? And that's not me and you, that's everyone else who's listening [00:27:50] to really find peace in doing less, uh, but being more [00:27:55] present. [00:27:55] Gerry Scullion: And the caveat to that one is like if you're seen doing less in an [00:28:00] organization, your worth decreases and. You, you're [00:28:05] potentially at a higher risk there of losing your job. I think that's the, the kind of thinking behind this [00:28:10] question, um, how, what can we do to feel more [00:28:15] present, uh, or find peace to do less, uh, in an organization.[00:28:20] [00:28:21] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So I suppose make [00:28:25] sure that you have, there's clarity within your role. So [00:28:30] a lot of people that I come across, there's not, I don't know fully what [00:28:35] is expected of them in an organization. [00:28:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:28:37] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And they get pulled in every [00:28:40] direction, requests, you know, organizational charts. It's a simple thing who's reporting to who, [00:28:45] because sometimes people do get pulled in every single direction. [00:28:48] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Two um, [00:28:50] meetings. So when you have meetings. Do a five [00:28:55] minute, um, window. So instead of 30 minute meetings, have 25 minute meetings or an hour meetings. [00:29:00] Have 50 minute meetings. Yeah. Um, you know, when PE [00:29:05] show people what, um, have leadership guides on what, like what good looks like for [00:29:10] managers, um, have, you know, in meetings, [00:29:15] um. [00:29:16] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Show, like, uh, there's one place, there's these place mats in the [00:29:20] center of the all the meeting tables. What, what respect and course in meetings looks like. [00:29:25] Um, and although it's stuff we know, it's a really positive reminder and people feel [00:29:30] respected and heard. But with regard to your question about being kind more [00:29:35] present, it's having definitive boundaries and [00:29:40] looking at what self-care practices work for you. [00:29:44] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. [00:29:45] And then implementing them into your daily life. Like I personally, [00:29:50] um, a couple of years ago was coming down off an antidepressant [00:29:55] and mm-hmm. A good friend of mine said to me, um, [00:30:00] what are you replacing it with? And I was like, I don't, I don't know what you mean. And she goes, [00:30:05] well, you're, you're taking out one of your. [00:30:09] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And [00:30:10] what whatcha putting in its place. And all I thought at the time was, oh my God, something else. Are you kidding me? [00:30:15] Exactly, alcohol. So I was like, okay. Uh, and I had to go think about it [00:30:20] and every day, and anyone that knows me that works as me knows this about me, I walk. [00:30:25] At lunch. [00:30:26] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:30:26] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Hail, rain, shine of waterproof runners of all the [00:30:30] work here. [00:30:33] Gerry Scullion: Good to you. [00:30:34] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I do. I [00:30:34] Gerry Scullion: [00:30:35] know you were a big walker. [00:30:36] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I do. It's my sanity. It's, and I say to the lad, laugh. [00:30:40] Uh, usually, or sometimes recently, a colleague of mine in dub in the Dublin office [00:30:45] walks with me sometimes as well. [00:30:46] Gerry Scullion: Brilliant. [00:30:46] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, uh, yeah, and it's my sanity. So looking [00:30:50] at what self-care works for you and implementing it into your daily life and [00:30:55] attaching it to a habit that you already do will make it [00:30:59] Gerry Scullion: success.[00:31:00] [00:31:01] Gerry Scullion: I, I interviewed, um, the, the authors [00:31:05] of, uh, I can't remember what it's called, busy work, Brad. And, [00:31:10] um, I can think, I can't remember the other guy's name. But anyway, we're talking about busy [00:31:15] work and walking is one of those things that you can do to alleviate, uh, the [00:31:20] pressures. [00:31:20] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Regulation, [00:31:21] Gerry Scullion: regulation and stuff, but like leaving your phone behind [00:31:25] you and not [00:31:26] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: exactly. [00:31:27] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, that's one of the big things because it's [00:31:30] these little nudges and these vibrations in your pocket are like, oh, I'm on, I'm on, I'm on. Yeah. We [00:31:35] joke about being like a lab rat, but we're like lab rats. [00:31:38] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: It's, it's anything. Anything [00:31:40] that has a continuous motion walking. Running, cycling, swimming [00:31:45] regulates the nervous system. [00:31:46] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, and I, the, the chronic busyness thing that we're [00:31:50] all in, um, it's, it's relentless. People feel that they are [00:31:55] spinning so many plates, they can't actually think straight. Um, and it's just, it's carving out [00:32:00] time for looking after yourself. People can actually become [00:32:05] addicted to busyness and addicted to scrap, you know? [00:32:09] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, [00:32:10] and it, it's looking like. I like when I'm in companies, I always tell 'em like, happy [00:32:15] salespeople produce 37% more profit. [00:32:18] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I, I would well believe that. [00:32:20] Just on the caveat, like, I hate not remembering people's names. That was J Outlaw and Brad Marshall who've been on [00:32:25] the podcast before. Oh yeah. Book is busy idiots. [00:32:29] Gerry Scullion: It's a great one. [00:32:30] Um, you, you, you definitely should buy that one. Louise. I think you'd like it. It's called Busy Idiots. [00:32:35] Busy idiots. Um, and if I get to catch up with you again, I'll show it to you as well. [00:32:40] Lean over into my bookshelf. That's the book. It's really, [00:32:43] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: I'll get that actually. I like, I like the look of [00:32:45] that, [00:32:45] Gerry Scullion: learn the brain science and the productivity hacks to get ahead without the stress. [00:32:48] Gerry Scullion: I mean, that's a, it's a [00:32:50] big one. And I'm actually going through that at the moment about trying to, um, disconnect. I've got [00:32:55] my mobile phone for five and a half years. It's been the longest I've been able to [00:33:00] keep a piece of technology alive. It's here, it's, it's an old pixel, but unfortunately it's starting [00:33:05] to die and I wanna try and get off. [00:33:07] Gerry Scullion: I wanna try and like figure out. [00:33:10] You know what? They make it very difficult for you. They [00:33:13] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: don't make it easy. [00:33:14] Gerry Scullion: They don't make it [00:33:15] easy to, to get a phone that will just have a WhatsApp. The only reason WhatsApp there is because. [00:33:20] Do [00:33:22] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: not yet Do they WhatsApp now? [00:33:24] Gerry Scullion: They, they don't. [00:33:25] It's like the Kios is the big thing that WhatsApp isn't support that anymore, so [00:33:30] I'd have to get an Android phone and then if you get an Android phone with full Android on it gets WhatsApp on [00:33:35] it. [00:33:35] Gerry Scullion: And there's a whole kind of work around that. Unfortunately. I know that I do, I use the [00:33:40] browser to access social media stuff when I'm on trains and stuff. [00:33:44] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: What I would [00:33:45] say to you, actually, I met a guy recently on a course and yeah, he had been diagnosed recently [00:33:50] with a DH adhd. Oh. And he said he puts, um, [00:33:55] uh, what, what's the word, um, controls on his [00:34:00] phone that blocks certain apps after a certain period of time, and he can't unlock.[00:34:05] [00:34:05] Gerry Scullion: Oh, okay. [00:34:05] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: It's controlled and somebody else has a password. [00:34:07] Gerry Scullion: Brick is one that you can use to smack your phone [00:34:10] and it just locks all the apps out for a specific amount of time. I mean, it's common to that [00:34:15] for me. Like I'm, I'm pretty addicted to, to social media like YouTube and [00:34:20] LinkedIn and stuff, but like, it's just being able to disengage and switch off, off, [00:34:25] uh, you know, when I'm finished work is, is the big thing. [00:34:27] Gerry Scullion: I find myself scrolling, not being [00:34:30] present stuff. [00:34:31] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. [00:34:32] Gerry Scullion: Scrolling. [00:34:33] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Go down rabbit holes. I, I leave mine [00:34:35] upstairs at night. I've started leaving it upstairs at night because I'm like, you know, it, it's just, it's so, [00:34:40] you just do it. You just, that dopamine hit, we're just off that little mini [00:34:44] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. It's a [00:34:45] slippery slope. [00:34:46] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. [00:34:46] Gerry Scullion: Um, so just looking more on [00:34:50] turns of integration and reflection. Um, and we're coming towards the [00:34:55] end here, so I just wanna try and understand a little bit more around psychological safety. [00:35:00] Um. And inner awareness and busyness and risk. [00:35:05] If you're to look at all of those in terms of a, kind of an interconnectedness of a system, [00:35:10] what connects them all in your experience, like that whole, uh, inner [00:35:15] awareness, the busyness, the psychological safety, and the risk, what are [00:35:20] the, the bits that connect all of those in, in your experience? [00:35:23] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Do you mean for like, [00:35:24] Gerry Scullion: you think [00:35:25] about them like, um. Psychological safety, inner [00:35:30] awareness, busyness and risk. Is there anything in particular that speaks [00:35:35] to all of those? [00:35:37] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: As in As in how? How to improve your psychological [00:35:40] safety. [00:35:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. For [00:35:41] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: yourself, [00:35:41] Gerry Scullion: is it? Yeah. For you, yourself. Like when you, we need to [00:35:45] think about our psychological safety. [00:35:46] Gerry Scullion: We need to think about our awareness. We need to reduce our busyness, [00:35:50] we need to reduce the risk of serious health problems. Like is [00:35:55] there one thing that you can recommend to people that. [00:36:00] Applying this can actually, uh, like you mentioned, they're leaving your phone upstairs. Yeah, that's a really, [00:36:05] it's something so obvious, but, um, not many people do it myself [00:36:10] included. [00:36:10] Gerry Scullion: Um, [00:36:11] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: no, I get you. Um, I suppose identify what [00:36:15] your stressors in your life are and park what you can't control. [00:36:19] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. [00:36:20] [00:36:20] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Because I mean, you know, every. [00:36:25] For example, every illness, uh, in the world, mental, physical illness has risk factors. [00:36:30] Yeah. And there's risk factors that we can control and risk factors that we can't control.[00:36:35] [00:36:35] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And the ones that we can't control, we park because there's nothing we can do. So [00:36:40] only focusing on the things you can control. So identify our stressors and park we can't, [00:36:45] would be the two biggest things. [00:36:47] Gerry Scullion: A two by two kind of matrix and just Pope [00:36:50] retract what you can control. Um, and then the last piece that I wanna ask you, [00:36:55] um, you mentioned you had two daughters and, uh, [00:37:00] the future of healthy work. [00:37:02] Gerry Scullion: What do you think that looks like and what advice [00:37:05] do you give to them to really question and ask themselves each day, [00:37:10] um, as they move closer to the working world? [00:37:14] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, [00:37:15] I think. Like it, it's kind of scary. All the [00:37:20] AI stuff, you know, I, I think if we don't understand it. Embrace it. Embrace [00:37:25] we, we've no chance, um, in the future. [00:37:27] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Like people are so worried about their jobs and [00:37:30] AI and all that sort of thing. Um, it's the people that embrace it and understand it are the people [00:37:35] that will keep their jobs. And it's the people that refuse to engage with it are the people that will not because it will, [00:37:39] Gerry Scullion: yeah, [00:37:40] [00:37:40] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: time will move on. [00:37:41] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Technology will move on for the future, I suppose, [00:37:45] um, with my girls, um, remember that like, you [00:37:50] know, make sure that. You enjoy, enjoy what you do. [00:37:55] You know, like, and identify [00:38:00] environments. Learn how to identify environments that maybe, you know, you put a plant in the wrong [00:38:05] environment, it doesn't thrive and it doesn't grow. [00:38:06] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Remember, it can be the environment, not you. And sometimes people [00:38:10] personalize, um, situations when really and [00:38:15] truly it's actually nothing got to do with them. People think. [00:38:20] People join the dots a lot of the time about, they might know two facts. Yeah. [00:38:25] And they'll create their own narrative about those two facts as to how that occurred. [00:38:29] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: And [00:38:30] they might be completely wrong. And it ends up being like [00:38:35] incorrect untruths that they end up telling themselves and then they get emotion, they, they [00:38:40] think about it, they create in turn, create emotions about it. And then that can dictate their behavior [00:38:45] and they can be really low or, you know. Yeah. [00:38:47] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Undervalued or about something that's not [00:38:50] even correct in the first place. So, you know, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, [00:38:55] [00:38:55] Gerry Scullion: absolutely. [00:38:55] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So just be mindful of what environments you are in and remember, [00:39:00] like if you're not thriving, uh, and growing in the environment you're in, [00:39:05] it might be the wrong environment for you. [00:39:07] Gerry Scullion: Nice. Louise, if people [00:39:10] want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with [00:39:15] you and you know, what kind of services do you provide for for businesses? [00:39:20] [00:39:20] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: So, um, so, uh, as I said, I'm, I'm a director with eh, [00:39:25] HS International, so, um, you'll get me there or on LinkedIn. I'm, um, a LinkedIn [00:39:30] nerd. [00:39:30] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, and, um, I, I know, um, [00:39:35] but also I suppose all, all things, mental health keynote talks, um, [00:39:40] everything to do with culture, uh, mental health, first aid, stress management. I do a lot of, um, [00:39:45] coaching, psychological safety, psychosocial, uh, risk assessments. [00:39:50] Um, I'm currently doing a piece for a large organization nationwide, a video [00:39:55] for the 7,000 employees that I'm gonna be doing a video on how to look after [00:40:00] yourself. [00:40:00] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Um, so empowering women, men's mental health, um, [00:40:05] all those different areas I look, um, I work within. And, um, [00:40:10] I think you, [00:40:10] Gerry Scullion: Everton. [00:40:12] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: In, in this space. I, I, I, I'm a big [00:40:15] fan of, I love what I do. I love what I do, and I learn. I, instead of [00:40:20] watching the news and listening to the news, I, I'm doing courses, podcasts, you know, [00:40:25] you name it, because I'm, it's back to what I can control. [00:40:28] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: There's nothing in the news I can control, [00:40:30] but I can't control my education. And yeah, as I said, I'm a bit of a nerd [00:40:35] before Jerry. [00:40:37] Gerry Scullion: Well, look, I wrap every episode on, this is Eight City Up by [00:40:40] thanking you, the guest for allowing me to go, um, in all directions with my [00:40:45] conversation. Uh, these are unscripted podcasts, so we, we go with the [00:40:50] conversation and we try and have a natural conversation as best we possibly can. [00:40:53] Gerry Scullion: Thank you for allowing me that [00:40:55] space and that time to do that. Louise, I really, really appreciate it and best of luck with everything. [00:40:59] Louise Dennison O'Shaughnessy: Thank you so [00:41:00] much and thanks for having me on. It's been a [00:41:05] pleasure.