GERRY SCULLION: Hello and welcome to another episode of ‘This is HCD’. My name is Gerry Scullion and I’m a human centre design practitioner based in Sydney, Australia. As this episode was recorded in the Sydney CBD I’d like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora nation as the traditional custodians of the land where we meet today and pay respect to their elders both past and present.

This episode is the second part in a two-part series with Andy Polaine, the regional APAC design director for Fjord and Simon McIntyre who is the Associate Dean of Education in UNSW, formally COFA, the College of Fine Art and Design.

In the first part, we spoke about the problems faced in education and spoke about some of the origins of these problems. This episode builds on that but goes deeper into the work that UNSW is undertaking about redesigning the university with a focus on enabling a culture that will better place their students for the future.

What’s so good about this combination of Andy and Simon is not only have they worked together before but is the relationship between Andy’s service design history and his academic past in teaching in Europe. Together with Simon, they approach the subject of the future of education with pragmatism. So let’s jump straight in.

Andy, Simon welcome back to ‘This is HCD’ part two.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Good to be here again, thanks,

ANDY POLAINE: Yeah, thanks very much.

GERRY SCULLION: Great, yeah we released the first of this series and there’s been some chatter on the slack channel about the topics that have been raised and I guess after last time we spoke we were really only getting going and we started to run out of time on certain aspects and on a very high level, I think in the first episode, we touched on some of the more systematic problems of how education works, their problem origins and how the system is struggling to both deliver and measure its impact.

But there was one block in the conversation that Simon said that I really want to dig a little bit deeper into and it was what tends to happen is the values tend to be eroded to keep the machine going. What I mean by that is that you have a certain amount of students that are shovelling into the system to be able to pay for the complex unwieldy system and then to actually maintain that there are more and more education providers popping up for a quick fix so to speak so you have to lower the bar and shovel more students in rather than taking the time to stop and really look at the context that the education system is in holistically and re-design it and overhaul it. Wow! That was such a big block of text and I know, from speaking earlier, we’re going to learn a little bit more about what you’re doing at UNSW. So let’s dig in a little bit deeper on what you’re actually doing at the moment, Simon.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Just to contextualise that a little bit more. I guess what I’m saying is that these institutions are quite large and complex and they’ve developed over a period of time before a lot of the disruption that the digital boom has actually brought. So to actually change our education administrative budgeting structures takes a long time in large institutions. So there have been a lot of smaller, more agile institutions popping up, offering more targeted educational opportunities. So what we’re trying to do at UNSW Art and Design is look at that problem openly and honestly and really invest in re-designing a lot of our systems and a lot of our thinking from the ground up so that we’re sort of adaptable and agile.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah so what does that really mean? I mean it’s easy to say that but what does it actually mean on a day to day basis? Like somebody, obviously there are a lot of people talking about, there was chatter in the rooms but how do you actually action it? How do you get it in to play?

SIMON MCINTYRE: There’s about a 100 different factors that we’re thinking about with that but there are things just like as a starting point, what does teaching mean today? So traditionally it might mean someone goes into a room for three hours with a group of 20 students, sits down and talks at them or has interactive discussions and we start to define the action of teaching by those sort of past traditions.

Today we’re talking about having more agile curricula which means being able to pull pieces out and replace it with things that are more appropriate for the changing society that we’re working within. It’s about different modes of teaching; it’s about personalisation which means that we don’t necessarily give everyone the same amount of content without understanding how they’re dealing with it, how they’re processing it and what they need to do to customise it to really suit their own trajectories.

So there’s a lot of database work, digital infrastructure, there’s changing teaching patterns, there’s different use of space, there’s pulling people out of individual boxes and having them collaborate across the entire faculty or institution and all those breaking the mould kind of things.

GERRY SCULLION: How are you going to move forward? Are you going to demonstrate the value of this type of thinking first?

SIMON MCINTYRE: Okay so before we’ve made any decisions about what we need our programs to be we’ve done a lot of research and looked at a few different things. So we’ve talked a lot to current students, we’ve done focus groups with different industry partners, we’ve talked to alumni and we’ve looked at a lot of historical data, both quantitative and qualitative from our student experience surveys that we’ve done over the years.

We’ve also done a lot of curriculum mapping to really understand what we’re teaching from a holistic viewpoint in our programs so we can understand how all those pieces fit together.

GERRY SCULLION: So obviously in your day to day job you’re Associate Dean.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Associate Dean of Education.

GERRY SCULLION: So have you taken that role on also of the transformation piece?

SIMON MCINTYRE: I’m using that role to actually drive this change because for me I think one of the problems we’ve faced, these large institutions, is looking at things like technology and curriculum as separate entities that we sort of try and glue together in some way. So we’re sort of going right back to basics and looking at the pedagogic structure of our programs, what students really need to be equipped with when they’re going out into the industries, by getting industry involved in that conversation and thinking about designing a structure from the ground up that allows for integrated industry contributions throughout the curriculum and not just things like work experience placements but actual collaborative projects that students can work with throughout the curriculum, looking at how we can use technology to chart students’ progress and give them feedback on where they’re strong and where they’re weak in certain different skills, attributes and knowledge and help them make informed choices about where they need to go next.

GERRY SCULLION: Okay, Andy what are your thoughts on this type of approach that UNSW are taking at the moment?

ANDY POLAINE: Well, it’s interesting and it’s great to see because it’s a design process, right? I mean obviously I’m going to say a service design process but you’re starting with going back to first principles and what’s the problem space and then really mapping out the ecosystem and looking at all the different parts of it. And only then starting to think about what the solutions are; so how are those things delivered? Whether that’s face to face or online.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah, so talk a little bit more about the design team that’s actually doing the work so to speak. Are you actually using the students? I know we discussed that a little bit earlier; it’s actually a perfect playground almost for the students to get their hands dirty and sink their teeth into a project of that size. So what are your thoughts?

SIMON MCINTYRE: No, I completely agree because the students are one of the main stakeholders in all of this. These programs are for them and I think it’s incredibly valuable to draw on that experience all the way through that design process. So we’re doing this in a couple of ways. As I said, initially, we talked to a lot of students about their experiences but we’re also looking at involving students in the curriculum design process as we go forward in a few ways; looking at their pathways through programs, having them involved in designing assessment, designing the types of experiences that they were lacking and what they want, being mindful also that sometimes students don’t always know what they want and we have to help them understand what they need. And also UNSW has a large program running right now called ‘Students as Partners’. So we’re involving a lot of students from different disciplines in the production of education content as well.

So it’s all the way through the sort of research and problem solving, curriculum design through to production.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah. So what kind of learning have you been able to obtain from any of the smaller players and what they’re doing well?

SIMON MCINTYRE: I think agility is the number one issue that we’ve been facing traditionally so the way the curriculum is structured there are individual, what we call courses, other people might call units or modules and the knowledge is so deeply ingrained in that structure that if something has to change it often involves a major revision. So we’ve really been looking at how we can create academic spines where we’re talking about larger, more long lived principles to do with different sorts of issues or problems and then have more adaptable units we can plug in and take out in exchange that fit into that.

So that gives us an opportunity to have collaborative projects across faculties. We can put in different examples from industry or partnerships within industry we can plug in. And if the latest flavour changes or a new piece of technology or a new process comes out, we can respond to that really quickly.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah it’s almost like Lego or modularity of education is what I’m hearing.

ANDY POLAINE: Yeah I mean I think the modularity thing has been around. I remember when I was a student, I’d just started studying it had sort of shifted over to a modular structure and there was, I guess that was the beginning of a kind of pick and mix structure. And then it sort of started to coagulate again where it’s kind of pseudo-modular, like there’s different modules and theoretically you can choose whatever you want but actually you need to choose these ones. Because I think, I had a question really for Simon which was one about pace and you know a lot of people might know a student brand’s idea of pace layers or shearing layers where you get certain parts of an organisation or structure move very slowly and other parts move very quickly and originally developed this idea within for buildings around buildings that a kind of plot of land doesn’t really change shape very often, the building also doesn’t change much and the kind of fit out of it inside changes faster and then you know obviously the occupants and furniture and things are sort of the fastest moving layer.

GERRY SCULLION: True. Yeah.

ANDY POLAINE: Yeah and there was this kind of shearing that goes on, there’s this kind of grating where you’ve got these different layers moving at different speeds and one of the things I think I remember from when I was head of the then school of media arts at then what was COFA, College of Fine Arts, was a real tension between the fact that learning is something that is actually quite hard to kind of push, you know and I think of agility and I think of sprinting and all that sort of stuff, whilst there is definitely a fantastic learning experience that comes from doing a sort of a week or two in depth for something sort of quiet high pressure and it often leaves a real trace and depth, there’s some things that just take to develop over time and that thing of students they don’t know what they don’t know, they might not know what they need, there’s often sometimes years later I get students writing to me and saying ‘oh you know that thing you said it makes sense now’ or ‘this really sort of crystallised for me a few years later’.

At the same time because education, particularly in Australia, is so expensive, there’s this massive pressure internally and often from family, for students to just get through, get credentialised, get done as quickly as possible and I wonder how much that had turned up in the research that you’ve done and in the approach you’re taking.

SIMON MCINTRYE: Definitely that’s an issue and I think it’s one we’ve been really trying hard to see if we can address because what we found when we did our curriculum mapping, for example, is that a lot of the courses were repeated so they had a content that all the others were teaching and we were trying to jam so much into the students’ head in a very short piece of time, we didn’t really have as clear a connection or a pathway between those experiences as we would have liked.

So there is obviously an imperative to have students get that degree and get out there working. That’s what a lot of people need to do because of other pressures. What we’re doing to try and address that though is to really make the pathways and connections through the learning experience more explicit, to take time to explain to students you are doing this because this will connect to these other ideas that are to come. And to make sure that we’re not hitting them over and over again with repeated concepts that don’t increase in depth as they go through.

GERRY SCULLION: But isn’t it really important to educate to the person’s strength so each person is unique and each person is individual and if I’m more interested in the psychology side of design whereas somebody else might be more interested in the craft of actually doing the work I could get into that. That’s another conversation; but like how do you grade, how do you control that educational experience for those people?

SIMON MCINTRYE: And that is a really good point, especially when it comes to design because design is finding its way into so many different sort of industries and contexts than maybe it was thought about before and traditionally design might have implied making artefacts where now it’s actually about helping to make change or experience or social…

GERRY SCULLION: Increase the visibility to transparent?

SIMON MCINTYRE: Exactly. So what we’re doing in the programs we’re working on now is to have a studio that spans the length of the degree. In that studio we’re really talking about the explicit processes of design. We’re talking about the attributes you need to have as a designer, no matter what field of design you might actually end up in. And there’s a space in that studio for students to progressively develop these skills and then focus on areas that they’re interested in as they go through.

Supporting that we have streams of disciplinary-specific courses that they can choose to actually help them get skilled up in the theory and practice in those specific areas and then they can redefine what they are working on, what direction they’re going in in that studio.

GERRY SCULLION: So what role would a person’s development play in the responsibilities of a university? Say like helping the person grow as an individual is as equally as important as the knowledge that they obtain during the degree; has that been considered in the re-design of the transformation of the organisation?

SIMON MCINTYRE: Very much so. It is a real focus right now and for us particularly, having spoken to a lot of different industries about our ideas or asking them what they needed that was one of the number one things that kept coming back. You know we’ve had designers come into our studios and they don’t understand how much time to invest in working on a project relative to where it sits in the development cycle.

So you know spending a 100 hours on a pitch that should have been a five-minute sketch, little things like that which when we looked back at the curriculum we realised we weren’t explicitly helping students to develop that sort of a reflective idea of who they are and what they need to be.

GERRY SCULLION: And their core values as well.

SIMON MCINTRYE: Exactly.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah absolutely.

SIMON MCINTYRE: So we definitely have made explicit touch points throughout that studio experience which is about the practice of being a designer, about discovering who you are and what your strengths are and how you fit into the environment you’re going to go into to help students reflect on those sorts of attributes that they need to develop and then the portfolio assessment that we’ll have through there is not just about ‘here’s your piece of work that you’ve developed’ but we want to see all of those attribute skills and knowledge and how you’ve combined them and reflected on them to get to that point.

GERRY SCULLION: And is that going to go towards their… I don’t know what you call it in Australia, the CPA, your final score? Is that something that you’re still going to be applying as a method of evaluation?

SIMON MCINTYRE: The concept of grades is still something that we have to deal with in the university environment. I think that comes back to the idea of the shear you were talking about before and the different rates of changes. So for a while the university still operates on that. However, there has been a lot of work on the idea of micro credentials or more qualitative rubrics that we can use to help students really understand the quality or the appropriateness of the work that they’ve submitted without having to rely on a number like 71 or 73 where we can’t really quantify what that difference means.

ANDY POLAINE: I think there’s a parallel there; it’s really interesting listening to this because I think one thing is an education in some respects is special, has a certain place in society that’s perhaps different from other commercial entities and at the same time they’re being asked to, universities are being asked to act as though they are businesses and be commercial entities and that’s part of one of those tensions. But I think that hearing a lot of what Simon was talking about, that’s not unique to educational institutions. I mean it’s the same kind of stuff going through all or certainly most of our clients that we work for, you know they’re all dealing with the history of decades of a certain way of working and are now trying to shift. And you know all sorts of structures, you could talk financial industries, healthcare, telecommunications; they’ve all got this kind of ….

GERRY SCULLION: Consideration.

ANDY POLAINE: Yeah structures that they’ve come from where things have been the same and now they’re not. And interestingly that thing about the solid number is one of the issues. There’s this desire to take on a designerly way of working and more comfort with ambiguity, more comfort with iteration and not having everything planned out. At the same time there is still this really ingrained habit in business ‘yeah but show me the number’. As if that’s the only kind of mature way of looking at anything. And I say ‘mature’ sort of deliberately because it’s almost like a sense of the kind of fluffy stuff is alright for you designer kids but you know us business people need solid numbers and I don’t think that that’s really a case of maturity, I actually think it’s almost the opposite.

GERRY SCULLION: Do you think that’s more because of the business kind of saying we’re going to take over from here now boys, we’ve got the figures and we’re going to show that there’s progress?

ANDY POLAINE: I think it’s one of those things where a certain way of thinking creates a vicious circle where you, if you look at what’s happened in economics or just in sort of politics over the last well I guess sort of 50 years it’s remarkable that economic growth is really the marker, really the only kind of metric that seems to matter about what’s going on in the country. You know everything is about economic growth and it wasn’t always like that and I think that what tends to happen is when something is complex and confusing the one thing that is the common denominator is money. It’s a comparative, that’s what money is, it’s a sort of token to say this thing has the same value as that thing. And I think it’s partly out of desperation I actually think. I mean there’s a whole load of other stuff around there but of ‘this is all too complicated, just give me a number’. And actually some things are really complicated and you have to get your heads around them and if there’s a place where you need to get your head around it it’s in education.

SIMON MCINTYRE: And I think the, I mean I agree with that, you’re never going to get rid of that number and the students are going to go into worlds where there is that number. In the programs we’re trying to design right now what we’re trying to do is really focus on the student becoming self-aware of what’s really important in their developmental process. So yes there’s always going to be a number behind it but if we can give them enough insight and enough feedback and enough information about where they’re doing really well, what their weaknesses are, what that reflective practice can offer them, we’re hoping they can actually develop that skill within themselves so they can understand the value of that learning experience and the iterative design experience.

ANDY POLAINE: It’s like you’ve taken sort of Montessori and Steiner kind of principles into university and it shouldn’t be a surprise, particularly within art and design, but it kind of is interesting that those, the ways of thinking about education generally stop at High School and it doesn’t really kind of get pushed into university.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah I was lucky enough to interview Greg Bernarda from Strategiser on the podcast which it may be up by the time this podcast comes out. One of the questions that I posed to him was something that we discussed in episode one of this two part series and it was the role of education in the future of innovation of companies; I’m like is there a correlation and what was his thoughts on that. And he made a really good point that as humans we’ve become a lot more like robots in the last 50 years where we’re focussed purely on you know getting the thing done, being efficient and moving forward and we need to spend greater time at play and that’s what we’re here on this earth to do and we’re here to show love and to have fun and to experiment and be curious. So in the transformation base that we’re discussing here, what role have you given to play, because for me it’s probably the biggest thing that I look for in someone’s life, like are they open? Are they you know happy to play and to be curious in the workplace?

So if you’re designing for one experience how have you tackled that topic?

SIMON MCINTYRE: That’s a very important point and sometimes that’s quite complex to deal with when you’ve got grades at stake, you know that number. So there’s a fear that I can’t play because I have to do something right so I can get the grade for that course and add it to my other grades as I go through.

GERRY SCULLION: So they’re competing?

SIMON MCINTYRE: Yeah and it’s just again, like you said, repeating over and over and over again. So by looking at the program holistically what we’re really trying to ensure is that each course or unit that a student does plays a specific role in that overall experience. The studio space that I talked about before is the place where we want that play and reflection to actually happen. Another thing we’re doing is creating what we’re calling ‘learning hubs’ which is basically skills development. So say for example it might be digital skills like rapid prototyping, it might be analogue, you know metal work, woodwork etc. But the idea with that is that we pull students out of individual classes where one of those things might be being taught in a shallow way over and over again and you’re only taught what you need to do the assignment. But pull people out into a different cohort, give them some basic skills but then that’s the place they can go and hang out with all the other people interested in this idea and have the space and time to experiment and then bring that back to their studios where they can integrate it in a more considered way into what they’re doing. That’s not going to be graded but we’re allowing time and space in the curriculum for that to happen.

ANDY POLAINE: Play is one of the things very close to my heart, it’s the thing I wrote my PhD about and I think that Brian Sutton Smith who is a famous researcher in play and authority said you know the opposite of play isn’t work, it’s depression. And when I think about that kind of productivity or that cult of productivity and it’s really prevalent from the Silicon Valley as well about sort of efficiency and it obviously goes back to what I was saying about the corporate world as well, it’s all about the number and less so about what’s the quality of this thing? And you know I would argue that the massive rise of design thinking and design in business is that readdressing that balance or that kind of bias. We talk about spaces quite a lot and if you want to transform a culture, space is a really important because you go into a work place or a place of education and they’re set up in a certain way, you know traditionally a lecture theatre or you know there’s a teacher at the front and rows and rows of desks or chairs and that says education, you’re here to pay attention, sit still and so forth. And the same is true in a corporate environment. So I often walk into people’s offices and I think why is this decorated like this? No-one would ever decorate their house like this; why would you want to spend eight hours a day here? And yet obviously designers get the reputation for needing kind of special snowflakes needing kind of certain environments and you know ‘oh you guys have a really nice space’. And I think there’s nothing stopping you doing that either but apart from that mental idea that ‘yes but I’m here to work and that’s not a space for work’. But I actually think that in order to have that you need spaces where you can have down time, you need spaces where ideas can percolate, you need spaces that force different kinds of behaviour and reduce hierarchies and all of those things. Understanding those kind of sort of playful spaces is really essential for education as well as corporations.

GERRY SCULLION: Absolutely. I know I sent your link there recently in Finland. They’ve designed a school where there’s no classrooms and there’s no classes effectively. The kids play together and they learn together and it was really interesting and I totally agree with the whole space changing cultures.

ANDY POLAINE: I mean things, interesting, when was it? Sort of 10 years ago? The un-conference formats that started to pop up of changing the way people work at conferences because conferences are another thing that are sort of set up a certain way and academic conferences are severely broken. There’s a whole podcast to be done on that. But that whole thing of well you vote with your feet and no-one gets upset if you walk out and you just go where you think it’s important and the people who are left there are the right people to be there and I think there’s some really nice implications for education around them.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Actually that is the basis of that learning hubs idea that I was just talking about is having flexibility in the curriculum for students to decide how long they want to spend in different places based on what they’re actually doing. It’s a challenge to try and actually engineer that because you can’t just make a space you have to also look at the curriculum at the same time. It’s no good having an amazing Google-esque kind of playground and then having the curriculum that forces the students to sit in a room for ten hours a day.

So it’s a work in progress but it’s definitely the principle that we want to work from.

GERRY SCULLION: So where would you be at on the typical design process in the journey? You’re obviously still in discovery, you’re still trying to understand the problems?

SIMON MCINTYRE: I think we’ve moved on a little bit from that but I would also say that discovery never stops. So it’s not just a process we do at the beginning. We’ve done that enough to get the structure in place and to nail down all the principles we want to follow and we have the program approved; it’s going to begin in a year. So what we’re really working on now is collaborating with the students, bringing industry people in, working with our academics; there’s a lot of professional development about new ways of teaching, new ways to use technology, new ways to break up the time, how it’s spent and it will roll out in 2019 and we’re busy in production. But that iterative kind of reflection and discovery is happening all the way through and what I hope sincerely is that we’re building this in such a way that that will always happen and we’ll have the space to respond to it because we haven’t built a monster, we haven’t built an overly complex machine, we hope.

GERRY SCULLION: So we’re coming close towards the end of the episode, guys, and I just have one final question and it was in my research for this episode I was looking online to see if there was any other universities that were talking about doing a similar task or project at a university level and I could find none. So what I’m really keen to hear is that something that UNSW are going to do? Are they going to speak openly about it in the press and almost open their doors and welcome feedback and what are the risks that go with doing that?

ANDY POLAINE: I can only think of more sort of private institutions, I think, or semi-private that are able to do that and they’re often quite focused too so Hyper Island is one that springs to mind that has been sort of set up within that to educate around that digital space and turn out kind of multidisciplinary people and because they’re sort of their own entity they’re able to do it. I think some of the schools in the states because again it’s completely private, they’re able to do that and be more nimble. I think there’s always this tension between you know the slowest shearing layer, it’s politics if you like, needed to change and there’s a real kind of, it’s very slow, universities are beholden on government for quite a lot of funding. With that comes the deathly kind of measurement culture that goes on. And I think that’s kind of part of the issue. It requires basically a whole institution that’s all about knowledge and the pinnacle of knowledge, the people who work there, the research that’s done.

SIMON MCINTYRE: And the answer is…

ANDY POLAINE: Yes we have all the answers. It actually requires that institution to say ‘well we don’t know all the answers’. It’s not that we don’t know what we’re doing but we don’t know what the outcomes going to be.

GERRY SCULLION: But it’s really, it’s a mind shift.

ANDY POLAINE: It is a mind shift which shouldn’t be unusual for research, right? So it’s research-driven because that is what research is, well we’ve got a hypothesis and we don’t know what’s going to come out the other end but actually sort of culturally within large educational institutions it’s a massive problem. The same as it is for quite a lot of companies, to basically sort of publicly say that ‘so this is an experiment, a work in process’ you’re kind of pitching if you like to parents who are saying ‘well hang on, I’m about to spend a load of money on my children going here and you don’t really know what they’re going to come out as?’ And it’s still that kind of factory problem that you’re having to tackle.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah that’s the risk that I was kind of seeing for myself but Simon, can you discuss a little bit more about like has that been discussed? Is that something that’s been taken into consideration?

SIMON MCINTYRE: I think UNSW is quite open about change right now. The 2025 strategy that we’re working towards is quite clear about where it wants to be in the learning and teaching space and research, in social engagement, and by definition that’s inferring we’re not quite there yet. So we’re working towards that. With the sorts of things we’re doing, essentially we’re saying we’re going to break down the way it works and rebuild it from the ground up and there will be a risk in doing that. There definitely is. I stay awake every night thinking about it.

GERRY SCULLION: I’m sure you do.

SIMON MCINTRYE: But I also look back on the history of what we’ve done and I think it’s better to be honest about the fact we need to change and we need to do these things because sometimes the programs and the students that were coming out may not have had such a good idea of what they were when they finished all of that study. And for me that’s not something that I think we should keep. We need to change that and for me it’s about being honest, tackling the problem and communicating to students and parents about why we are making these changes, how it’s been informed, through research and experience.

GERRY SCULLION: Inclusion.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Yeah exactly and include them in that journey so that they know this is going to be a better place when we’re finished.

GERRY SCULLION: Simon and Andy it’s been a fantastic conversation but for people who want to track the journey that UNSW are going through, how might they be able to follow that?

SIMON MCINTYRE: Well the starting point might be to Google the 2025 strategy UNSW.

GERRY SCULLION: I’ll put the links up.

SIMON MCINTRYE: Yeah and also for the work that we’re doing in art and design we’re at the stage in another couple of months where that will start to be promoted. So they can definitely…

GERRY SCULLION: It will be in the press.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Yeah within the press, on our websites etc. They can get in touch with me as well if they have questions, happy to talk.

GERRY SCULLION: So maybe we can follow up in another 12 months, 18 months and see where you’re at? I know a lot of people will be very interested in following this journey so thank you so much guys.

SIMON MCINTYRE: Thanks for having us.

ANDY POLAINE: Thanks.

GERRY SCULLION: So there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this episode and if you’d like to be part of the conversation or community hop on over to Thisishcd.com where you can request to join the slack channel and help shape future episodes and connect with other designers around the world.

Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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