Rooted in Innovation: The Future of Farming with Darragh McCullough from RTE's Ear to the Ground and Founder of Elmgrove Farm

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Jerry s Scion, [00:00:05] and today in the show I'm delighted to welcome somebody I hold in the highest regard. And that is Darren [00:00:10] McCullough, founder of Elm Grove Farm in county Mehan Ireland. And [00:00:15] today we're gonna be watching a live walking podcast [00:00:20] through the farm that Dara set up, or his parents set up.

[00:00:24] Gerry Scullion: We'll learn more [00:00:25] about that. One of the reasons why I found this topic to be so [00:00:30] interesting was the, uh, the family rituals that we've formed over the last two [00:00:35] years. As you know, I've got two young children and one of the key reasons for us to [00:00:40] return to Ireland was to get back to back to basics in many [00:00:45] ways, get back to nature, get back to our culture, and celebrate what it means to be [00:00:50] Irish and Dara McCullough has really [00:00:55] created something that I believe to be a really shining example, not just in the [00:01:00] northeast of Ireland, but all of Ireland, and generally speaking, anywhere in the world who wants to try and make a [00:01:05] difference?

[00:01:06] Gerry Scullion: Dara's parents set up Elm Grove Pharma, very successful. I. [00:01:10] Flower business. And over the last two years, it's [00:01:15] shifted and now it goes B2C. And [00:01:20] the experiences that we have there weekly, whether that's collecting eggs from the [00:01:25] hens or going and saying hello to the donkeys and, you [00:01:30] know, having great coffee, great food.

[00:01:33] Gerry Scullion: It just could not have happened by [00:01:35] chance. There had to be somebody behind it. And I wanted to understand [00:01:40] the, the beauty of, uh, how this, how this all came about. [00:01:45] Now, as luck would have it where, uh, uh, we're about to walk by [00:01:50] some starlings, which doesn't get any better than that. A [00:01:55] murmuration, a baby murmuration is just.

[00:01:58] Gerry Scullion: Taking float as [00:02:00] we speak. Um, and anyway, there's something to, to treasure [00:02:05] there. It's always something that makes me smile. But going back to this episode, [00:02:10] Dara is remarkable. We learn about how and why he [00:02:15] designs these experiences and what's really important to him. We learn about [00:02:20] modern farming techniques.

[00:02:22] Gerry Scullion: That really sustainability is at the center of everything [00:02:25] that Dara does, and we really talk in depth [00:02:30] about what it means for the future of farming in Ireland and just farming in [00:02:35] generally. It's a fantastic example for us as change makers [00:02:40] to see what is possible. One of the key pieces that I think you're gonna enjoy the most [00:02:45] is Dara focuses and places a large emphasis on collaboration, [00:02:50] which as you know, is at the center of human centeredness.

[00:02:54] Gerry Scullion: [00:02:55] He doesn't leave that to chance. He's got a, a mindset that is built for this. [00:03:00] And there's some key learnings that I've taken from that as well, and I hope you [00:03:05] will too. Enjoy the episode. If you're new around here, please subscribe to the [00:03:10] podcast. Those beautiful algorithms really get a little bit excited when people follow and [00:03:15] like, and share, and that helps The podcast grow, helps new listeners and so forth.[00:03:20] [00:03:25]

[00:03:29] Gerry Scullion: [00:03:30] Dara, it is great to have you here. Um, delighted to have you on the podcast. I am a customer, you know me from coming [00:03:35] up here every weekend with my kids, so it's deeply part of our, our weekend rituals in my own [00:03:40] family. But maybe to get started, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and I I'm [00:03:45] gonna ask you the difficult question about, you know, how do you describe what you do?

[00:03:48] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Well, it depends on the [00:03:50] day of the week, to be honest, Jerry. Uh, so I wear lots of different hats. I, I, I [00:03:55] suffer from the attention span, probably of an ant in the sense that [00:04:00] I, I'm easily distracted and I love a new project. I love innovation. Innovation, [00:04:05] and, uh, that's what we've tried to do here on the farm the whole time.

[00:04:08] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. So, uh, [00:04:10] I, you know, I, I work sometimes as a journalist. Well, I'll take you around. Here we go [00:04:15] for a walk through the fields. Yeah. Um. So I, I work as, [00:04:20] uh, a journalist in print and TV and radio. Um, but my [00:04:25] full-time job and, you know, while 90% of the people we, I'll take it [00:04:30] through the, the garden center here.

[00:04:31] Darragh McCullough: Uh, 90% of the people I meet know me from [00:04:35] my media profile, but actually 90% of my time is spent here on the whole farm. [00:04:40] So, yeah, this farm, uh, was bought by my granddad just [00:04:45] after the, uh, second World War. And he came from just up the road there. Monster [00:04:50] Boys, uh, crossed the county boundary. Yeah. And uh, when he came here [00:04:55] first.

[00:04:55] Darragh McCullough: To my mind, like I, I come from a, a, a long [00:05:00] line of innovators and really all I'm trying to do is keep up with them. Uh, when he came here, [00:05:05] he came here because it was close to the railway line and it was the start [00:05:10] of a refrigeration and the possibility of distributing liquid [00:05:15] milk to every household in the country.

[00:05:17] Darragh McCullough: In other words, you didn't have to have a cow to [00:05:20] have liquid milk on your corn flakes in the morning. So he could see that [00:05:25] change coming. And he had cows and he wanted to be able to supply this [00:05:30] market. It was a demanding market. It had much higher, uh, specs in terms of the [00:05:35] sanitary requirements. Yeah. And the quality of the milk.

[00:05:38] Darragh McCullough: Um. But he [00:05:40] knew that there would be an extra margin in that product. So he, he came here because this was [00:05:45] close to the rail went on, it had good, uh, access to Dublin, where the main market [00:05:50] was, and we had light free drain and soils. So, uh, that was the [00:05:55] start of, uh, the, the farming innovation in my family. And from, from [00:06:00] my perspective, my dad came after him and, you know, he was one of the [00:06:05] first farmers in Ireland to import new breeds of cattle like Charle, which at the time, back in the [00:06:10] sixties and seventies were, you know, kind of considered the AI of, of, [00:06:15] of beef, uh, breeding.

[00:06:16] Darragh McCullough: And then we were one of the first farmers in the country to put [00:06:20] in robotic, uh, milking machines. And that's 25 years ago. Those [00:06:25] guys today who think, you know, the idea of milking a cow robotic Yeah. Robotically is, [00:06:30] is kind of sci-fi, but we were doing that on this farm 25 [00:06:35] years ago. So really anything I've done since then is really just [00:06:40] piggybacking on that, uh, platform of innovation, of thinking outside the [00:06:45] box.

[00:06:45] Darragh McCullough: Sure. Of see, trying to see where the opportunities are.

[00:06:47] Gerry Scullion: So from a family perspective, you've [00:06:50] been around innovation from the get go.

[00:06:52] Darragh McCullough: Yeah.

[00:06:53] Gerry Scullion: Um, is the [00:06:55] farm at the, the cattle, is that still in the family?

[00:06:57] Darragh McCullough: Absolutely. So we're standing [00:07:00] here, uh, in the garden center. This is one of the most recent additions Yeah.

[00:07:04] Darragh McCullough: To the, the [00:07:05] setup here. But, uh, and, and again, [00:07:10] 90% of the public see this part of the farm. This is the, the public facing, the [00:07:15] consumer facing side of it, but actually the majority of the farm. Is doing [00:07:20] what most farms do. It's working away there silently in the background, we [00:07:25] have cows and we have about 125 acres dedicated to dairy cows.[00:07:30]

[00:07:30] Darragh McCullough: And I'm in partnership with my neighbor on a dairy enterprise. So again, collaboration, [00:07:35] uh, to try and achieve the scale required to maximize the profitability from [00:07:40] that enterprise. And I can't, I can always spread myself so tin. Yeah. Uh, [00:07:45] I'm lucky to be living beside a guy who's brilliant at milking cows.

[00:07:49] Darragh McCullough: [00:07:50] He knows all the angles in terms of optimizing the sustainability [00:07:55] in terms of, uh, economically, socially, and environmentally [00:08:00] from dairy farm because we can have a whole conversation about, you know, the. The [00:08:05] impacts, the, the impacts of dairying and, and farming in general. I mean, you cannot get [00:08:10] up in the morning as a farmer and not have an impact on the environment.

[00:08:13] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And [00:08:15] uh, how so? To me, the question is how do we minimize that impact? Yeah. It's not about, [00:08:20] I. Culling the national herd or forgetting about farming. Let everything go wild again. [00:08:25] Yeah. Uh, and just hoping that our food magically appears in our plate. Yeah. Uh, we've got [00:08:30] to, I think, keep food production in this country.

[00:08:32] Darragh McCullough: We've gotta stick at farming what we're good [00:08:35] at farming and we've gotta do it in the most environmentally sustainable way. See, the way I get distracted, I know. No, it's [00:08:40] completely com

[00:08:40] Gerry Scullion: completely, completely Cool. But the reason why I know you Yeah. Is, [00:08:45] um, just to give you a background, like, so March, 2024, [00:08:50] um, you know, I grew up in raha, so like, you know, a funny little anecdote.

[00:08:53] Gerry Scullion: My mum actually held you [00:08:55] as a baby in my family business. I was telling you that one day. So it's kind of funny, uh, to have that [00:09:00] relationship. Well, that's Ireland. But this is, this is very much an Irish state because it's

[00:09:04] Darragh McCullough: such a, a, a close [00:09:05] knit community really. And we're a small country,

[00:09:06] Gerry Scullion: right. We, I used to pass up and down this road as a child [00:09:10] and I brought my kids to, um, the St.

[00:09:12] Gerry Scullion: Patrick Day parade, inro. And they, you know, and we [00:09:15] were up there and we were coming back and my my kid said, look, there's, there's hens in there. And I was like, oh, [00:09:20] yeah. There's probably been hens there afraid. I haven't noticed it. And I saw them chopping the daffodils and there [00:09:25] was kids running through the fields and I was like, let's swing in here.

[00:09:27] Gerry Scullion: We'll have a look. And you'd only recently [00:09:30] opened, I think, at that stage. Is that about right? The time? So this whole retail site is only about two years old. Yeah. Yeah. So it [00:09:35] was probably a little bit, uh, before that, but this is a, this is new ground if you [00:09:40] want, for, you know, the McCullough family and for, for Dara.

[00:09:43] Gerry Scullion: So how, how and where did this [00:09:45] come

[00:09:45] Darragh McCullough: about? Okay. So, uh, the farm, up until [00:09:50] about, uh, up until COVID Yeah. Was a [00:09:55] primary producer. We didn't deal with the public at all. Yeah. Um, so what we did [00:10:00] was we were producing milk from our dairy herd. We were growing cereals, and we were growing [00:10:05] cut flowers, but the cut flowers were being harvested and sent into [00:10:10] supermarkets or being exported abroad.

[00:10:11] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. When COVID happened. [00:10:15] Uh, I had This is a polytunnel that we're standing here. Yeah. [00:10:20] And this is converted polytunnel. So I've turned, converted into retail space, but this was one of my four [00:10:25] polytunnels that was full of flowers that [00:10:30] we were growing for supply into Flo, for supply into supermarkets. [00:10:35] And COVID happened and all the florists shut.[00:10:40]

[00:10:40] Darragh McCullough: And, uh, I was left looking at these potty tunnels full [00:10:45] of flowers. I'm gonna take you this way around here. That's an indoor play [00:10:50] area by the way, just in case you're wondering. So you have your lunch? Yeah. [00:10:55] Uh, so we, we had all these tunnels full of flowers and [00:11:00] COVID hit, and all my outlets were drying up.

[00:11:02] Darragh McCullough: And I said, okay, what the hell are we gonna do [00:11:05] here? So I. I basically got onto a pile of [00:11:10] mine who was, uh, designing websites at the time, and I said, listen, we've got to sell, [00:11:15] sell flowers nationwide. We just tell people, listen, we'll deliver [00:11:20] flowers to their door. And he said, sure. And over the course of a long, stressful weekend, and [00:11:25] we got a website live and we started sending out boxes [00:11:30] of, uh, cut flowers to, uh, people all over the country.

[00:11:33] Darragh McCullough: And this was [00:11:35] COD and everybody was going nuts online. Yeah, yeah. And I thought, [00:11:40] wow, this is the future. This is where we're going to be at. That was my first [00:11:45] kind of real, uh, light bulb moment. I went, you [00:11:50] know, why weren't we doing this before now? Now I, I'm gonna muddy the water a little [00:11:55] bit. We were flogging flowers at the farm.

[00:11:57] Darragh McCullough: You were. 'cause I remember that as a kid. [00:12:00] Is that right? Up to that? Yeah. Um, so we've been flogging flowers out, [00:12:05] small buckets, literally like this sounds ridiculous, but they [00:12:10] were buckets that we used to feed milk to the calves mounted on a [00:12:15] pallet that's right on the side of the road. That was it. Yeah.

[00:12:18] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And [00:12:20] uh, and the idea, and I tell this against myself, the [00:12:25] idea for that was one of the guys who worked here was [00:12:30] gonna get married and he needed to pay for his wedding. And we were growing [00:12:35] acres of dals, but we were growing them for the bulbs. We weren't growing them for the cut [00:12:40] flowers because we were growing onions at the time.

[00:12:42] Darragh McCullough: And we had all the kit for that. That's what we were set up [00:12:45] for. And. Uh, John went out every [00:12:50] Saturday morning for a couple of two months to pick, uh, [00:12:55] DAFTA, to sell them at the gate to pay for his wedding. Right. And I was looking at him. I, I was, [00:13:00] uh, in my early twenties at a time, so I was more interested in beer and [00:13:05] Skittles than actually doing a hard day's work.

[00:13:07] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. But I was looking at John selling these [00:13:10] flowers on the side of the road and I was going, why aren't we doing that? Yeah. [00:13:15] Uh, he paid for his wedding outta that, and it took one of the guys working for [00:13:20] my dad to show me. Actually, Dari, here's a trick that you're missing big [00:13:25] time. So yes, we were selling, uh, flowers in a small way to the public at the side of the [00:13:30] road.

[00:13:30] Darragh McCullough: Then COVID happened and I needed to really pivot. So we went [00:13:35] online, and then when we went online, I realized I needed Floris to, you know, [00:13:40] arrange flowers, to make bouquets, to be able to deliver to people. I thought you could just put flowers in the [00:13:45] box and. Get the address right and shove 'em out there in a, and you can't DPD [00:13:50] van.

[00:13:50] Darragh McCullough: But actually, and, and this was a real learning curve for me. I went [00:13:55] off the deep end and this, the message in the box. So very often people say, C, can I send a [00:14:00] message and I'm gonna a message. Well, I mean, you're sending flowers. Oh, okay, fine. We put a message in and it was [00:14:05] like, uh, dearest Mary. Uh, so sorry, um, to hear the [00:14:10] passion of your husband or whatever it was.

[00:14:12] Darragh McCullough: Uh, love Dorothy, right? Yeah. [00:14:15] It was all these heartfelt messages and very [00:14:20] personal, very personal. I was messing it up because I was getting all these orders [00:14:25] coming at me on WhatsApp, on the phone. I had no system set up these mess. I was getting them [00:14:30] mixed up. So Dorothy was getting a message for Anna, and [00:14:35] Anna was getting a message for Darty, and that was a disaster.

[00:14:39] Darragh McCullough: And it, [00:14:40] so it was a major, major, uh, realization that Dar you're [00:14:45] actually selling more than flowers here. Yeah. You're set, you're sending people's [00:14:50] heartfelt wishes and love and, uh, [00:14:55] their, just their thoughts and best wishes. Yeah. In a box, the flowers are almost [00:15:00] incidental. Yeah.

[00:15:00] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:15:01] Darragh McCullough: The intent. And so I [00:15:05] realized, A, that this was a more complex business than I'd realized.

[00:15:09] Darragh McCullough: B, I [00:15:10] needed help and I needed professional help. So I was then at the point where I [00:15:15] needed to hire flowers. We were selling flowers at the side of the road. Uh, [00:15:20] I, I got a trailer, which I thought was a major upgrade on sitting in a van. I decided [00:15:25] road waiting for people to stop. But the flowers informed me in no uncertain terms that dar, this isn't [00:15:30] really just exactly what we're used to.

[00:15:32] Darragh McCullough: It's a bit like cultural. Like we've no toilet [00:15:35] facilities. We're on the side of a road. We can't actually, you know, somebody comes in with, uh, a [00:15:40] 500 year order, there's cars banging by, you know, we can't sit down and talk. So how do [00:15:45] we scale? Right? So Dara agonized over this a [00:15:50] bit, and finally, and probably about 20 years too late, [00:15:55] went and committed the money to build a flower shop down there, which was a big, [00:16:00] big in investment.

[00:16:01] Darragh McCullough: It was a massive, as well, probably a massive risk, uh, a massive [00:16:05] investment. And, uh, but it [00:16:10] paid off. And it paid off to the extent that. Um, we, [00:16:15] we were selling flowers. So when, when I started building the, [00:16:20] these things keep on snowballing. So, uh, when I was saying to people, uh oh yeah, [00:16:25] we're gonna build a flower shop, they went, oh, great.

[00:16:27] Darragh McCullough: And you'll probably do coffee with that as well. And I went, um, [00:16:30] no, it's, it's gonna be a flower shop. Yeah. Ah, no, you'll do coffee. [00:16:35] Uh, no, we've, we've no experience of doing coffee. Like, we're just gonna start our flowers. Great. We'll see you for [00:16:40] coffee and go, you've got kettle on Cheaper. We better do something for coffee.

[00:16:44] Darragh McCullough: [00:16:45] So I went off and I bought a coffee cart.

[00:16:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:16:50]

[00:16:50] Darragh McCullough: And we had our flower shop. And next thing we were doing farm, [00:16:55] uh, veg. And then we were doing milk, and then we had our hands that your kids [00:17:00] saw and we had always trying to do something that's a little bit different from what you can get [00:17:05] in a standard shop.

[00:17:05] Darragh McCullough: So rather than just having your Ross 5 6, [00:17:10] 1 5 hybrid, you know, Ferrari hens that pump out eggs at are [00:17:15] eight nuts. I say we go and get different breeds to pump out different color eggs. Yeah. [00:17:20] And then when you open the egg box, you've got all these different colors and it's mixed breeds [00:17:25] and people love that.

[00:17:26] Darragh McCullough: So we sell out of eggs by 11 o'clock every morning. No. [00:17:30] Well, like, so we started with flowers on the side of the road. We built a shop selling coffee, [00:17:35] then we're selling eggs. Then, uh, a guy rings me up and he says, Hey, listen, I, I'm doing [00:17:40] pizza from my backyard and I'm a chef and I've been trying to find a place and [00:17:45] I'm, I'm really struggling.

[00:17:46] Darragh McCullough: Would you be interested in having a chat? And I said, okay, let's have a [00:17:50] chat. Yeah. That was when I met Shaba cmo, who [00:17:55] does pizza that people now travel from, [00:18:00] from Donal. Right. To, to get a hold of, I'm gonna take you [00:18:05] into the field here.

[00:18:05] Gerry Scullion: Can I just stop you on that point, point there? So like we spoke about the, the [00:18:10] old school way you were, someone was selling flowers from the firm and you [00:18:15] replicated that same model, that same business model, and expected the same [00:18:20] results.

[00:18:20] Gerry Scullion: So how do you stay on top of this? Like from a business perspective you're always [00:18:25] adding Yeah. To the business. This is, this is kind of the precursor for, I was like, this would make a great conversation [00:18:30] because we went up here, I must've been to Cat cut the daffodils, it was a couple of months ago. Yeah.

[00:18:34] Gerry Scullion: So [00:18:35] on DAFs. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, this is much bigger than I actually thought. It was like, you know, we're, we're [00:18:40] walking through the farm here and you can hear the birds and all that kinda stuff, but how do you stay on top [00:18:45] of the additions to the business? And you know, it's probably quite [00:18:50] stressful,

[00:18:50] Darragh McCullough: I imagine.

[00:18:51] Darragh McCullough: Well. It's stressful for my wife anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:18:55] probably a lot of the people around me, I, one of my, uh, [00:19:00] weaknesses in life is that I need a little bit of pressure to get outta bed in the morning. I, [00:19:05] I, I thrive under a bit of pressure. Yeah. And so I like having a [00:19:10] challenge in front of me every day that I get up.

[00:19:13] Darragh McCullough: And that's what [00:19:15] motivates me. It's the, the downside of that. And so that's great [00:19:20] if, you know, we're in a space where we can try different things and, uh, [00:19:25] they, they turn into, uh, profitable ventures, but it's challenging for the people that are around [00:19:30] me. Because they're forever, I'm forever coming up with another idea and they're going, [00:19:35] Dar for the love of God, please stop.

[00:19:37] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And so is Iffa your wife? Is [00:19:40] that, is that the person that says Cool the Jets? That's too much. Well, Iffa and, and Colin and Ruth [00:19:45] and a lot of the people who, the managers who work for me, what I, I suppose I've tried to get [00:19:50] better at is capacity building in the team. So, um, how'd you do that? [00:19:55] Well, uh, like everything around here, it happens organically.

[00:19:59] Darragh McCullough: [00:20:00] Yeah. So, uh, you know, column, uh, is working [00:20:05] with me in the office and when he came to me, he was, I'd actually studied Ag Science [00:20:10] with him. He's a local farmer, and, uh, he was at a bit of a loose [00:20:15] end and he was looking for a, a part-time job. He's now [00:20:20] my HR manager. Right, right. So. And, and looks after my [00:20:25] payroll.

[00:20:25] Darragh McCullough: And that's skills he's learned on the job. And yet, okay, so sometimes [00:20:30] HR is a great example. You need to be really on the ball with hr. 'cause [00:20:35] you, it, it's a very fine line between land yourself in very, very hot water. Yeah. When you're [00:20:40] managing, uh, people. So, uh, on occasion we'll get [00:20:45] onto maybe the local enterprise office and say, Hey, listen guys, we need [00:20:50] help.

[00:20:50] Darragh McCullough: We need training on upskilling ourselves on creating an employee handbook [00:20:55] or conflict resolution or whatever. And they're great. They, they say, listen, we have, [00:21:00] uh, this, this consultant who specializes in this area, uh, of expertise, and we have another [00:21:05] guy over here who specialize in that. And we book you in for, uh, a slot and see how it goes.

[00:21:09] Darragh McCullough: [00:21:10] Yeah. And so as, as the challenges arise, we try and [00:21:15] deal with them. Are you and me

[00:21:16] Gerry Scullion: here? Are you in w you're in me. You meet county council. Support you in that, in your local, your local [00:21:20] ISDA or Navin. Navin is, is your local. Is your local. Why [00:21:25] isn't it Inda? That's another conversation. Um, so you, you're kind of organically [00:21:30] growing, um, and it sounds like you've got a lots of different types of customers.[00:21:35]

[00:21:35] Gerry Scullion: Is that right? So you've got the, the public Talk to me about your

[00:21:37] Darragh McCullough: customer base. Yeah. Okay. [00:21:40] So, uh, we're just here standing beside a field of Christmas trees, [00:21:45] right? Yeah. Uh, I didn't mention anything about Christmas trees. So we've, we've gone from [00:21:50] flowers to Christmas. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So to the entre eye, this looks like a [00:21:55] feel of weeds.

[00:21:55] Darragh McCullough: Um, but uh, when you start getting your eye in on the crop, you can see these [00:22:00] lines of Christmas trees with different varieties here. Insects everywhere here. Yeah. This is a great [00:22:05] sign hopping. Um, and, and really Christmas trees, we let them do their thing. I mean, [00:22:10] you can manage Christmas trees very, uh, intensively.[00:22:15]

[00:22:15] Darragh McCullough: Uh, I'm not that pushed about, uh, managing super intensively so we [00:22:20] could be out here spraying herbicide. Um, and so there's less competition for the [00:22:25] tree from the weeds. But to be honest with you, we're still getting a saleable product. [00:22:30] Uh, it probably takes a year or two longer to get it to market. I'm not sweating over that.

[00:22:34] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:35] In the greater scheme of things, you know, if, if you do the maths, and I love the, the numbers [00:22:40] behind all this stuff, I. An acre land is worth [00:22:45] 300 euros a year in, uh, land rent. Okay. Right. So an extra year is [00:22:50] 300 euros. Okay. Maybe an opportunity cost or whatever you wanna add into that. The [00:22:55] trees we plant about, uh, somewhere about 2000 trees per [00:23:00] acre.

[00:23:00] Darragh McCullough: We harvest about 1500 'cause we'd have a certain number of losses. Um, and [00:23:05] you sell those trees for 50 euros. A tree. Nice. So the mats on that is that [00:23:10] you have is that, um, 75,000 euros per acre. Now [00:23:15] we're dividing it over 10 years. 'cause it takes 10 years to get the tree from [00:23:20] zero to saleability. So that's seven and a half grand a year.

[00:23:23] Darragh McCullough: The three [00:23:25]

[00:23:25] Gerry Scullion: is irrelevant.

[00:23:26] Darragh McCullough: It's not, not in the picture. Yeah. [00:23:30] You asked me who's my customers? Let's, let's talk about that. We're, we're growing [00:23:35] Christmas trees here and the idea is that we can invite the public into our [00:23:40] farm and let them choose their own tree and cut it. And so what I'm all the [00:23:45] time looking for is either I.

[00:23:48] Darragh McCullough: We produce [00:23:50] something and we're able to compete with the biggest and the best in the world and go toe to toe [00:23:55] with them on export markets. And we do that on Dafta flowers. We do that in milk. Okay. So [00:24:00] you've got Aldi, I think is one of your big, uh, little, little, little is is uh, who we [00:24:05] supply our, our Daffy into.

[00:24:06] Darragh McCullough: And we also supply into Daffy, into [00:24:10] Poland. We supply them into the us, we supply 'em into Dutch auctions. We send them [00:24:15] all over the world. 'cause we pick 12 million stems, 13 million, I dunno, [00:24:20] stems of dafta. Yeah. Between friends, um, of [00:24:25] Daffy annually. And the Irish market's too small for that. So we export them all over [00:24:30] the world.

[00:24:31] Darragh McCullough: We, we milk 550 cows. The, you know, 90% of iron's [00:24:35] milk production is exported. Yeah. And we can do that because we can grow grass. [00:24:40] Uh, better than ev anyone else in the world, apart from the Kiwis, and that's a [00:24:45] really sustainable model of milk production in my opinion. We could [00:24:50] also, so Christmas trees is a, a, an example of a crop.

[00:24:53] Darragh McCullough: I could go two ways on. Yeah. [00:24:55] I think we can grow Christmas trees and be competitive internationally because, uh, [00:25:00] uh, we have a great climate for it. Um, there's a shorter Christmas trees in, [00:25:05] in Britain and on the continent, so we could actually, this is what we're looking at here is a plot [00:25:10] that's two acres in size.

[00:25:11] Darragh McCullough: We could be growing 200 acres of trees and just become that and, [00:25:15] uh, become a Christmas tree Yeah. Wholesaler and send them all over the world. I just don't have the [00:25:20] bandwidth in my head and in my business to go, uh, [00:25:25] scaling up the Christmas trees at this point. Yeah. This point, what I'm kind of doing is learning all the tricks of the [00:25:30] trade and we're selling 'em direct to the consumer.

[00:25:32] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. So depending on the [00:25:35] crop. And where I'm at in my head. Yeah. Uh, [00:25:40] determines where we're going to go with the product. So, uh, [00:25:45] like, uh, a lot of the flowers we grow and the poly tunnels down there, they're only little micro patches [00:25:50] and they all get sold through the shop.

[00:25:51] Gerry Scullion: So, can I ask you about like, so you've got these Christmas trees, you've got the [00:25:55] flowers over there.

[00:25:55] Gerry Scullion: If you were, and I mean this in the greatest amount of respect, if you were a true [00:26:00] businessman at its core, 'cause you're a farmer as well, you would look at where the most profit is and you would [00:26:05] just do that and replicate it and, and make as much money as possible. What's stopping you from

[00:26:09] Darragh McCullough: doing that?

[00:26:09] Darragh McCullough: Yeah, good [00:26:10] question. So, um, couple of things, and some of them are a bit more [00:26:15] nebulous than others, right? Yeah. So, uh, reason a, uh. [00:26:20] I think there's a good chance we have a, uh, a good [00:26:25] opportunity there to scale up a retail site down there. So we're, we've already grown by [00:26:30] double digit percentage growth for the last five years and that'll continue [00:26:35] and that's great.

[00:26:36] Darragh McCullough: The margins are thin in retail. Yeah. But, um, we [00:26:40] have a great opportunity to scale up something there that, um, [00:26:45] it will be a viable business in its own right, but it also does something else. It [00:26:50] diversifies my risk a little bit on the farm a hundred percent. So, um, it's a little bit of a [00:26:55] risk mitigation thing, so you can be, uh, really [00:27:00] laser focused and say, okay, the most profit thing I can do on this farm is, say produce milk, for [00:27:05] example, or grow Christmas trees.

[00:27:06] Darragh McCullough: So I'm just gonna carpet the place in Christmas trees. But then if a [00:27:10] bug or an insect or something lands on Christmas trees in five years time, we don't have a way [00:27:15] to cure it. Chris tree's wiped out and I'm, I'm, I'm high and dry. Yeah. [00:27:20] Milk, you know, has proven very resilient, but it has [00:27:25] its own challenges.

[00:27:26] Darragh McCullough: So, like, for example, uh, we've had to reduce the stocking [00:27:30] rates on our farm, on our dairy farm to comply with, uh, environmental [00:27:35] regulations. Yeah. Uh, not the quotas anymore. So there used to be a, a, a [00:27:40] limit on how much milk it could pump out. They scrapped that and everyone went [00:27:45] gangbusters producing more milk.

[00:27:46] Darragh McCullough: But then they realize, oh, hang on a second lads, this is actually affecting our [00:27:50] water quality. So what we're going going to ask you to do now is, um, [00:27:55] dial back the, the intensity with which you're stuck in your land because it's the [00:28:00] intensity of animals on the land that is creating that pressure on the biome.[00:28:05]

[00:28:06] Darragh McCullough: So by, uh, by having the retail, [00:28:10] um, it's diversifying, mitigates it a bit. I also like retail [00:28:15] because I. Um, wholesale and prime production [00:28:20] can be a little bit, what am I gonna say? How do I describe this? A [00:28:25] little bit heartless. Soulless, yeah. Almost. Yeah. Yeah. That you, you just, you're just pumping it out [00:28:30] pie high, sell it cheap.

[00:28:31] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Whereas with the, with the shop and the [00:28:35] retail, it's a bit more creative. Yeah. Um, it opens kind of a more, a bigger [00:28:40] variety of doors. I like the interaction with people. I mean, we're just have coming back from, [00:28:45] uh, Ireland's biggest, uh, garden show event, which is called Bloom in the Phoenix Park. Mic [00:28:50] drop Silver Guild.

[00:28:51] Darragh McCullough: Go boom. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, we had a tremendous, [00:28:55] uh, time. Uh, it was our first time ever. We went in the deep end, the usual. And, [00:29:00] uh, it was pretty stressful. But we came out, uh, smelling the roses next here in the [00:29:05] pond, um, and picked up great awards, but also got a great buzz [00:29:10] after dealing with the public and, you know, spreading the, the word about, you know, so [00:29:15] many people who live, you know, there's just a million and a half people live within 50 K of this [00:29:20] farm.

[00:29:20] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. 50 kilometers of this farm. We're not far from Dublin and we just need to spread the word. Yeah. [00:29:25] So those type of events help me do that. So being in the retail space, [00:29:30] uh, uh, energizes

[00:29:32] Gerry Scullion: me quite a bit. Yeah. I say I, I, I, I sense it like, and [00:29:35] I, when I go up on the weekends, it kind of connects the community as well.

[00:29:39] Gerry Scullion: Like, you know, we, [00:29:40] as I mentioned, St. Patrick's said, we come back up again this year and we knew something was gonna be going on in Elm Grove. And [00:29:45] I rang up and they said, yeah, there's stuff going on. We met people here and then met them at the parade, coincidentally. And then [00:29:50] the kids still ask for those people.

[00:29:51] Gerry Scullion: That's probably a story you, you're not even aware of, but these [00:29:55] little micro opportunities lead to other relationships and it fosters, how [00:30:00] important is it that there's a relative community building around this? So what does that look like in terms [00:30:05] of your vision for the business?

[00:30:06] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. I, when I, uh, [00:30:10] first sat down to draw plans for the, for the shop, yeah.[00:30:15]

[00:30:15] Gerry Scullion: So what we, talk to me, talk me through drawing up the plans. Yeah. What did that look like? [00:30:20] Because some people are like, I might, uh, people might be farmers here, and they said, geez, could we do something like this? [00:30:25] Yeah. How, how did you get

[00:30:25] Darragh McCullough: started? Like, so look, uh, where do you [00:30:30] start in these things? You start in the beginning and it doesn't have to be rocket science.

[00:30:34] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. I [00:30:35] sat down at a table and I said, okay, I need a building for my flowers to [00:30:40] work in and people to come in and park the cars, right? So I drew a square [00:30:45] box in a field, uh, that was the building, and I drew a square, bigger square [00:30:50] box for a car park. And then I showed it to my mom and she went there.

[00:30:53] Darragh McCullough: They're the wrong way around because [00:30:55] people wanted to come into the car park, don't drive around the building to get to the car park. That's [00:31:00] bananas. And I went, oh yeah, okay, duh. So, uh, we're. Uh, that's how [00:31:05] I started. I, I gave the, the, the, the sketch on the back of the fag packet to [00:31:10] um, uh, a local engineer.

[00:31:12] Darragh McCullough: Um, and he said, yeah, [00:31:15] how do you want this to look, Dara? I said, I want it to be as cheap as possible. [00:31:20] Put me up a box, right? Yeah. And he said, yeah, no problem. This is the shop down here, down here. [00:31:25] And so he did up a galvanized shed. A bit like this cat shed here. Yeah. With [00:31:30] a fancier door and a few windows on it, right?

[00:31:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:31:32] Darragh McCullough: Smaller, but yeah, same thing. [00:31:35] Uh, a farm, pretty much. It doesn't look like that

[00:31:36] Gerry Scullion: now though.

[00:31:37] Darragh McCullough: Well, this is the thing, right? So I, [00:31:40] we put that into the planners. They kicked it back to me and said, Hmm, [00:31:45] Dar no, uh, that's not really in keeping with the agriculture vernacular. And I was, there was steam [00:31:50] coming outta my ears reading this letter.

[00:31:51] Darragh McCullough: I was going, I agricul vernacular. Like, how dare they come on up here and [00:31:55] look at my other sheds? Tell me that's not the agricultural vernacular. And they said they want more [00:32:00] natural components, natural materials incorporated into the build. And I was [00:32:05] going, for god's sake, such a unnecessary cost to it.

[00:32:07] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. George said to me, who's doing up the [00:32:10] plans? He said, Dar, do you want the plan of permission for this or not? And I said, yeah, I want it. He says, [00:32:15] give them what they want. And so we put a nice curve on the top of the, the, [00:32:20] uh, building. We got some nice large to clad it. We, uh, [00:32:25] did a nice whitewash exterior.

[00:32:28] Darragh McCullough: And here's the funny thing. [00:32:30] So now people come up to me and go, oh my God, Dar you did such an amazing job [00:32:35] on like, where did you get the vision for that? And the truth is, is [00:32:40] often a lot more prosaic Yeah. And ordinary and slightly [00:32:45] accidental than people realize. And and that's just life.

[00:32:49] Gerry Scullion: [00:32:50] Yeah. Yeah. It's, this is, this was a complex kind of setup.

[00:32:52] Gerry Scullion: Okay. There was lots of stuff going on with it. [00:32:55] And it, the byproduct of tackling those kind of complex problems is the accidental pieces. [00:33:00] And you can see this is in action here. Like, you know, how do you, [00:33:05] um, it, see, it sounds like your mindset is, is set up for this, like by default, if you go back to your [00:33:10] parents there, you mentioned your mom was still, you know, kind of integral in that setup.

[00:33:13] Gerry Scullion: How, how was that [00:33:15] formed for you? Because like you are able to receive an awful lot of this ambiguity and, and process it [00:33:20] and, and get to a, a positive outcome.

[00:33:22] Darragh McCullough: Yeah.

[00:33:23] Gerry Scullion: What was it like growing up [00:33:25] and how did your, your mom is your dad still? Yeah, it's all

[00:33:28] Darragh McCullough: fortunate to have, but my [00:33:30] mom and my dad, uh, with me still.

[00:33:31] Darragh McCullough: And I, I think one of the [00:33:35] things that stands to me and to anyone who grows up [00:33:40] in a family that runs a small business is they're kind of [00:33:45] plugged into conversations around business [00:33:50] from the moment that they're sitting at the dinner table. Because the dinner table is the [00:33:55] boardroom. A hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:33:56] Darragh McCullough: And so, uh, dad will come in [00:34:00] and he's in a grump. Why you in a grump? Uh, the bank managers [00:34:05] have to turn me down for the loan. What happened? Oh, he didn't. He said we didn't have enough [00:34:10] collateral. Like, look at us, you know, but, but the point I'm [00:34:15] making is that. So you've got a 5-year-old at the table, or an 8-year-old, or a [00:34:20] 15-year-old, and they're hearing this and they don't realize that this is actually business training.

[00:34:24] Darragh McCullough: [00:34:25] Yeah, yeah. That, okay, if I'm really gonna pitch an idea to the bank that I need to have the [00:34:30] collateral in place and that it, you need to tick all these boxes. So they're kind of [00:34:35] absorbing this stuff automatically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I feel that, you know, [00:34:40] I, having grown up around a kitchen table and a farm and a farm [00:34:45] is, you know, employers, well, I'm told anyway that employers love [00:34:50] hiring kids from farms because they have a, a sense [00:34:55] of what are the fundamentals of making a business profitable.

[00:34:59] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. [00:35:00] How to be flexible and mobile change with, you know, so the weather is [00:35:05] terrible. We have to pivot and do this, or COVID happened or whatever. A hundred percent. [00:35:10] And, and and, and they just get it on with it. Like they don't get phased. Okay. [00:35:15] So, uh, we're going to install the first of its kind robotic milker on this farm.

[00:35:19] Darragh McCullough: [00:35:20] Okay. How do we plumb it in? It's not cheap. Uh, do I not need to go and do a [00:35:25] training course and, you know, get in a consultant or whatever? No, let's try it. Yeah, there's, there's [00:35:30] risks with that.

[00:35:31] Gerry Scullion: On that point about being around an [00:35:35] osmosis and picking this stuff up. When your dad looks at what you're doing now at the moment, do you think.[00:35:40]

[00:35:40] Gerry Scullion: Is there, what has changed, I guess, from the seventies and [00:35:45] eighties when he was running the farm? Do you think he could have done this in the eighties? And if not, [00:35:50] what has changed culturally and societally to enable this to occur?

[00:35:54] Darragh McCullough: Yeah, it's a, it's [00:35:55] another great question and I'm conscious that I haven't answered some of the questions already asked me, [00:36:00] but, um, it's an organic conversation.

[00:36:02] Darragh McCullough: Organic, yeah. [00:36:05] Um, so, uh, look, Ireland is a very different country [00:36:10] now compared to, you know, 50 years ago. It was 1975. In [00:36:15] 1975. I'm actually reading a book by, uh, fin O'Toole and it's a [00:36:20] great, uh, kind of, uh, potted history of the country and where we've [00:36:25] come from over the last 70 years. But he was making a point that in, in the fifties, [00:36:30] our biggest export from this country was beef, [00:36:35] right.

[00:36:36] Darragh McCullough: There was no pharma, there was no electronics, there [00:36:40] was no services. It was beef. Yeah. That was it. Cows Ireland is [00:36:45] unrecognizable economically now compared to then. [00:36:50] So what does that mean for a farm? Well, it means that there's a road there that [00:36:55] is the old Dublin Belfast Road. Yeah. And there's 20,000 cars rolling [00:37:00] up and down every day.

[00:37:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:02] Darragh McCullough: And there's a pile of money sitting in those [00:37:05] cars. Yeah. In people's phones. And they're looking for a place to spend it, and they're [00:37:10] looking for, so, you know, uh, in those years since [00:37:15] 1975, the Tescos have arrived. The small corner shops have disappeared. The [00:37:20] independent grocers have disappeared.

[00:37:21] Darragh McCullough: Butchers have disappeared. Uh, Floris are [00:37:25] disappearing. Yeah. And they're being replaced by huge big box stores like your, [00:37:30] uh, supermarket chain, whatever supermarket chain you character, uh, name. [00:37:35] So what can a farm offer? A farm can offer something different. [00:37:40] Yeah. Totally different to that. A unique retail experience.

[00:37:43] Darragh McCullough: And it's an [00:37:45] experience. It's not, and this isn't, you know, I, I hear other retailers talk about, come in, uh, uh, [00:37:50] and experience are whatever retail offer, but you know, [00:37:55] uh, you're still walking into a, a big warehouse. Yeah. Yeah. With fancy lights [00:38:00] here, you come into a working farm, you're surrounded by livestock that are producing the food [00:38:05] that you can buy on the shelf.

[00:38:06] Darragh McCullough: Right beside it, you can see the crops, uh, growing. [00:38:10] You can talk to the people who are growing the crops. Yeah. You can walk through the crops. You brought your [00:38:15] kids in here and you picked daffodils. You can engage with the farmer, you can [00:38:20] connect with nature, the people who are, uh, producing the food. [00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:25] Darragh McCullough: And the crops. And, uh, spend time in the great outdoors. I mean, what's not to love, [00:38:30] but. You know, it, it, so many Irish farms and farms in [00:38:35] general don't really see that as an opportunity. They see that, oh, that'd be hassle. Oh, cheaper is public liability. [00:38:40] Oh, I couldn't be dealing with the public all the time.

[00:38:41] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And all those things are true to an [00:38:45] extent, but, uh, like I, I, I feel that [00:38:50] we're also guilty of cursing the darkness rather than lighting the candle [00:38:55] that, uh, you know, there's an economic opportunity rolling by there [00:39:00] every day. And all we need to do is come up with a reason, give them a [00:39:05] reason to stop, pull in and give us a few, Bob.

[00:39:08] Gerry Scullion: So I'm hearing [00:39:10] there's lots of change, as we probably know, like mobile phone technologies. Lots of cultural [00:39:15] shifts, society kind of moving towards a better experience. You [00:39:20] could have easily just opened up a florist here and said, okay, buy your flowers and then go home. Yeah. But there's, there's an [00:39:25] experience being had here.

[00:39:26] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Like, what's the vision for this moving forward for you? Like [00:39:30] in terms of where does this all stop, Jerry? Well, where does, because like, I'm expecting to come here and there's gonna be a fun fair at TA [00:39:35] Park too, or something here, like another couple of months. That's a joke, of course. But like, you [00:39:40] know, we mentioned about COVID, the risk, the impact that, that had on every business around here.

[00:39:44] Gerry Scullion: [00:39:45] And from that, you know, a positive came out of it where the, what's the [00:39:50] future looking like and where are the, the risks for a business like this? Yeah. Because you, you could be exposed.

[00:39:54] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. [00:39:55] Yeah. To, to more change. So over here, Jerry, this is, uh, our Piney Rose [00:40:00] plantation. Okay. So, uh, we've about 20,000 piny roses.

[00:40:04] Darragh McCullough: You can [00:40:05] see, here's a couple of flowers that just, uh, the escape the [00:40:10] knife, that's the thumbnail. And, uh. It's gorgeous, isn't it? [00:40:15] Lovely. Um, and, and, and so flower, lovely flower. So, uh, people [00:40:20] go nuts for these and, uh, that's why we grow, uh, 20,000 [00:40:25] plants when we harvest. We're in, we're in the process of harvest.

[00:40:27] Darragh McCullough: You can see the buds on this next [00:40:30] variety here. They're just ready, just ready to start cropping and we'll be [00:40:35] cropping them later on today. Why don't we just cover the farm and pe Andy? Yeah. [00:40:40] Yeah. Um, again, it's about that risk mitigation thing that [00:40:45] we, we grow a lot of pe Andy. I'm making, uh, some money from them, but I don't want to [00:40:50] put all my eggs into that basket.

[00:40:51] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And, uh, 'cause I, I, [00:40:55] I've been there, I've been, uh, this far when I took over, really it's only [00:41:00] enterprise after a year or two was dafta. Right. And so the [00:41:05] stress of getting your DAF to harvest Right. And everything riding [00:41:10] on that Yeah. Is massive. And having to pay the wages on the back of that and being, [00:41:15] um, subject to whatever comes outta the sky, and I have no control over that.

[00:41:19] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. [00:41:20] That was an uncomfortable place to be. Where do we go from here? Yeah. What's the [00:41:25] future look like? I think the future for this farm is going to remain diversified. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um, I think it's important as a redefine line between. [00:41:35] Becoming a bit scatter. Gunned. Yeah. Um, where we lose focus on anything and we're [00:41:40] doing a little bit of everything.

[00:41:41] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Um, a a and being nicely [00:41:45] diversified where we have a little piece of that and we have a little piece of that, and we have a little piece of [00:41:50] that. So, um, if you were to come back to me in, uh, 20 [00:41:55] years time, this is a whole other podcast. No, no, it's,

[00:41:59] Gerry Scullion: it's

[00:41:59] Darragh McCullough: great [00:42:00] because of a few other lines of questions from this because.

[00:42:03] Darragh McCullough: You know, what is our weather doing? Our weather [00:42:05] is changing. Hundred percent. Yeah. So you'll notice here we have the minute [00:42:10] we have trickle, um, verigation systems here, right? Yeah. So [00:42:15] what I'm doing is I'm microdosing the plants with, uh, fertilizer that helps me be [00:42:20] more efficient with the amount of fertilizer we're using.

[00:42:22] Darragh McCullough: We're not spreading it all over the place. It's going right straight [00:42:25] to the root of the plant and we can tailor the formula to exactly what the plant [00:42:30] requires. So

[00:42:31] Gerry Scullion: how do you do that? Like, because like I know listeners will be like, okay, once they hear [00:42:35] fertilizer Yeah. Incesticide, all of these different things.

[00:42:39] Gerry Scullion: How [00:42:40] do they make sure that that's not making the soil? Okay. We're damaging

[00:42:43] Darragh McCullough: the water beds. Gotcha. So [00:42:45] there's no insecticide, uh, being used here at all. Alright. Um, so it's a feed. [00:42:50] Okay. And so it's, it's not, um, it's basically stuff that [00:42:55] is in the ground already. Yeah. So your nitrogen, your potassium and your [00:43:00] phosphorus, your key tree, key nutrients.

[00:43:02] Darragh McCullough: We might put in a little bit [00:43:05] of, uh, selenium. We might put in a bit of copper. And again, that's just to [00:43:10] harden up the leaf. It's to, um, give the plant exactly the right [00:43:15] nutrients that it needs. How do we know we're not, uh, polluting the water table? Well, my, [00:43:20] well for my house and my baby is over there, right?

[00:43:24] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. [00:43:25] I don't know of any greater impetus for a farmer [00:43:30] to manage what's going down through his soil Yeah. [00:43:35] Than to be consuming what he produces from his own fields. Absolutely. Right. And so the, the water that [00:43:40] we drink from that well over there in those trees is coming from an aquifer under where we're [00:43:45] standing.

[00:43:45] Darragh McCullough: Right. So if I mess that up. Mess you up. I mess me [00:43:50] up and my little baby gra Yeah. And so, uh, that is my [00:43:55] motivation. Poor efa by the way. There. We, we, we poor reefa E counts [00:44:00] too. Uh, um, so we soil test, right? So we [00:44:05] take, uh, soil samples, we analyze it, we see where it's deficient, and that's [00:44:10] how we tailor the recipe.

[00:44:11] Darragh McCullough: So we soil test every year and we adjust the recipe every [00:44:15] year. Um, and so it's not in my interest for my [00:44:20] health to, uh, over fertilize, but also for my pocket. I know. [00:44:25] Absolutely.

[00:44:25] Gerry Scullion: So one of the thing that I've noticed, and you've probably more than definitely been aware of [00:44:30] your own kind of potential here, but.

[00:44:33] Gerry Scullion: When people see the, the [00:44:35] shop that's down here and then they see the pizza farm and then they see the dairy farm. It's [00:44:40] collaboration is one of those pieces. If you're greedy, you'd be like, I'm gonna set up my own pizza [00:44:45] place. I'm gonna hire a pizza, you know, chef, and I'm gonna build and I'm gonna look.

[00:44:49] Gerry Scullion: [00:44:50] After you become a megalomaniac and you're spread far too thin. Thin. Is that one of the, the [00:44:55] strengths that you see about seeing opportunities within the, the community to bring them in? Yeah. And creating an [00:45:00] employable workforce and Yeah, it

[00:45:02] Darragh McCullough: becomes big time. So, [00:45:05] um, you know, I. If I want to do a lot of a [00:45:10] few things Yeah.

[00:45:11] Darragh McCullough: I've gotta be comfortable with delegation and [00:45:15] partnership. Yeah. And so they're two similar but different things. [00:45:20] So delegation is where I employ somebody and I delegate that task to them. Yeah. [00:45:25] And partnership is where, uh, I get into bed metaphorically with [00:45:30] somebody, metaphorically and, [00:45:35] and, uh, say to them, alright, you get this and I get this.

[00:45:38] Darragh McCullough: And, uh, the first thing we [00:45:40] agree is how it all ends. Yeah. So, uh, again, I [00:45:45] feel that Irish farmers are. Very fearful of, [00:45:50] uh, partnerships because they feel they're losing control that somebody else [00:45:55] knows their business, whatever, a whole load of reasons. I'm kind of, of the opinion that, you know [00:46:00] what, again, with that diversification and risk mitigation piece in [00:46:05] mind, that if I can harness my neighbor's brilliant [00:46:10] skillset for managing a milk cows Yeah.

[00:46:13] Darragh McCullough: And I [00:46:15] can have him look after a part of my asset. Yeah. And I can get a a [00:46:20] what, a, a return out of it that I'm satisfied with. Happy that win. [00:46:25] I don't have to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I meet with him, we discuss how things are going [00:46:30] on and we make, it's my responsibility to manage my assets.

[00:46:34] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. [00:46:35] But it's a massive workload off my plate. Absolutely. And again, the [00:46:40] pizza Shaba does world class pizza. Yeah. He, he actually [00:46:45] told me. He went to Naples last spring, and he went [00:46:50] around the top 10 rated pizzerias. Naples is the home [00:46:55] of pizza. Yeah. And he went around the top 10, uh, restaurants in the Naples [00:47:00] region to sample all their pizzas.

[00:47:02] Darragh McCullough: And it was delighted because only two of them came up to the [00:47:05] mark in his estimation. Yeah. But he's got the time, the [00:47:10] motivation to go get in a plane, go to Naples, look up all those guys, go out [00:47:15] and visit them all and make an assessment and come back and say, yeah, okay, we're going the right direction here.

[00:47:19] Gerry Scullion: Here's a [00:47:20] question on that. Right. So you've got a great visionary, somebody who's got a really high [00:47:25] standard, how do you ensure the partnerships you bring into your business live to your standards? [00:47:30]

[00:47:30] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Uh, good question. Um, there's no guarantees. Yeah. And so [00:47:35] the, the, I think the most important thing about, uh, a partnership is that on day one, everyone sits [00:47:40] down and agrees how they're gonna finish.

[00:47:41] Darragh McCullough: Right. So before you commit [00:47:45] anything, you agree how you're going to, uh, wind up, and that gives everybody [00:47:50] a clear exit, uh, sign. Yeah. A clear exit door because if [00:47:55] somebody feels that they're trapped in something or that this isn't working and they dunno how to get out of it, [00:48:00] it just goes rancid in no time.

[00:48:03] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. So [00:48:05] what I I, the kind of fundamentals that I try to, and look, I haven't done [00:48:10] that many partnerships, but that have worked for me so far, is that if the [00:48:15] person wants. The two people need, [00:48:20] need to be coming to the equation saying, yes, I need you and you need [00:48:25] me. Yeah. You've got something that I want and I've got something that you want.

[00:48:29] Darragh McCullough: [00:48:30] Uh, we can come together, we can, uh, combine those two things and if it doesn't [00:48:35] work out, we know how to get out of this. Yeah. Pretty much. Uh, well I how [00:48:40] in Shabba's case, right, um, it was an email, right? And [00:48:45] people would say, Jeep, that this is crazy. I got an email [00:48:50] from, and I never heard of him in my life.

[00:48:52] Darragh McCullough: This is a pizza guy. Yeah. And. [00:48:55] Uh, it was a really nicely worded email and just said it was really polite. It said, hi d [00:49:00] uh, Dara. Dear Dara, uh, just to let you know, I called in [00:49:05] for a coffee in your recently established coffee shop, and I really [00:49:10] enjoyed what I was served, how I was served it, and the ambience around [00:49:15] it.

[00:49:15] Darragh McCullough: I am a, a very experienced chef that is trying to get [00:49:20] a, uh, takeaway pizza business established. I'm currently working out of my backyard [00:49:25] and I've been trying for a year to find a location. I would love to be able to sit down [00:49:30] with you and discuss the possibilities. And then here's a random don't know from [00:49:35] Adam.

[00:49:36] Darragh McCullough: You get emails all the time from people fishing, whatever. But [00:49:40] I said, do you know what? I'll give him a ring. Oh yeah. Listen, can I come out and visit? He said, yeah, no problem. [00:49:45] And he said, when with a suit? I said, this afternoon, give him no time. Yeah, right. [00:49:50] He said, isn't Bob Bri? I got into my car, drove up there.

[00:49:53] Darragh McCullough: And he had a little shed out the back of his [00:49:55] garden in an estate, and the place was immaculate. Now, can I ask you, what pizza did you [00:50:00] order? I said, give me a margarita. Because to taste, to [00:50:05] test pizza, you want to test the fundamentals and not have it [00:50:10] disguised with all the fancy ingredients. Yeah. So the fundamentals are the ragu, the [00:50:15] parmigiano, the dough.

[00:50:17] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And whatever season he's gotten there. And he [00:50:20] served me up a margarita and mano man, I said sold. Yeah, done. Done deal. And [00:50:25] he's actually operating out a trailer that was, [00:50:30] I got, uh, uh, made here [00:50:35] 20 years ago. As a mobile farm unit, one of my many ventures during my [00:50:40] farming career, uh, I teamed up with an organization called Agri Aware.

[00:50:44] Darragh McCullough: And the [00:50:45] idea was that we would bring our own farm animals around to schools and show kids, number [00:50:50] one, what farm animals look like and sound like, and two, uh, what is their role [00:50:55] in our food system. And immediately a lot of adults kinda go, oh, geez. I mean, so [00:51:00] you're bringing a piglet to a school and like, how would that go down?

[00:51:04] Darragh McCullough: It's brilliant. We were, [00:51:05] we say to kids, listen, what do we get from pigs? And they'd all look at me, kind of go, [00:51:10] eh, and then one fell down in the back, go sausage. And you go, bingo. Yeah. And they go, oh, wait a [00:51:15] minute. And then you go, yeah. But that's what we have to do. And to, to, to [00:51:20] pop that vacuum that can develop between people's [00:51:25] perceptions and theories about food and connecting with the realities early [00:51:30] in life.

[00:51:31] Gerry Scullion: Very important,

[00:51:31] Darragh McCullough: in my opinion. It's

[00:51:32] Gerry Scullion: key. Very important. We moved home from Australia. [00:51:35] I think I said this the first time I met you said I moved home from Australia for these experiences like [00:51:40] cultural, uh, sort of design in action [00:51:45] almost. And the ability to be able to go and see the hens. And when I get [00:51:50] say to my children, I says, what you feeling?

[00:51:51] Gerry Scullion: They, I feel warmth. I says, where did it come from? Yes, I, I ca it came [00:51:55] from the, he and I go, okay, cool, let's go and we'll make pancakes, we'll make stuff with it. So we got our [00:52:00] eggs for the week up here as well. And it's, you know, probably a little bit more expensive, but we get the [00:52:05] experience with it as well.

[00:52:05] Gerry Scullion: And we're paying for that experience. It's really [00:52:10] heartwarming to see these things. Like there's a number of these businesses that I see popping up around Ireland, like, you [00:52:15] know, so kudos to you. Kudos to the risk. Kudos to the team here. 'cause we come up every [00:52:20] weekend. Been an amazing workforce here.

[00:52:22] Gerry Scullion: You're very lucky to have all of these [00:52:25] staff that, that we've sort of become friends over the last couple of years. [00:52:30] So we're, we're gonna wrap up, you know, and if there's anything that you want to [00:52:35] shout out to, uh, the team out there at the moment. 'cause you did a big, [00:52:40] uh, exhibition in Bloom as you mentioned, and there's a large social media [00:52:45] following, sort of coming off the back of that.

[00:52:47] Gerry Scullion: Someone said 10,000 people have just followed you in the last couple of weeks or [00:52:50] something. Kudos to you. Like anyone you wanna give a shout out to in particular? Yeah.

[00:52:54] Darragh McCullough: Well, I, I, I'll tell you [00:52:55] what, I wanna go back to a question that I got distracted from. Yeah. Go on. And that, that was, you [00:53:00] said, what does this mean for the community?

[00:53:02] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. And,[00:53:05]

[00:53:06] Gerry Scullion: uh,

[00:53:09] Darragh McCullough: I, [00:53:10] I've been really taken back by the number of people that have come to me and said, I. [00:53:15] You know, what you pray down there. It's a great addition to the community, to the [00:53:20] locality. And honestly, and I say this against myself again, when I [00:53:25] was asking George to do up the plans for the box for, to, uh, give my floris a [00:53:30] bit of comfort, I was not thinking about adding to the community.

[00:53:33] Darragh McCullough: I was thinking about a ways [00:53:35] to keep my floris on my payroll and content and sell my flowers. [00:53:40] So the fact that it has snowballed into something that has been so [00:53:45] much more, uh, has been a little [00:53:50] miracle to be honest with, with you. And I feel so lucky and, [00:53:55] uh, grateful that, you know. Number one, I have a farm [00:54:00] to do these types of things that I have the staff around me to enable [00:54:05] me to, to bring these dreams and aspirations to real life.[00:54:10]

[00:54:10] Darragh McCullough: And hopefully to create something that, you know, when I'm long gone, [00:54:15] people say, do you know what? That fella, he had some good ideas.

[00:54:19] Gerry Scullion: Oh no, absolutely. And Grace, [00:54:20] you know, which we can probably, we, we'll keep recording on the way back, but Grace, baby [00:54:25] Grace is gonna obviously, hopefully maybe take over. We don't know.

[00:54:29] Gerry Scullion: Like it's [00:54:30] something for them to

[00:54:30] Darragh McCullough: succession on farms. What a, a topic. Holy cow. That's a [00:54:35] podcast number three. But, um, you know, farmers, uh, there's a [00:54:40] major, major problem out there. Um, so the average age of farmers in Ireland [00:54:45] currently is something like 58 to 62 years of age. There's a huge problem out there [00:54:50] because.

[00:54:51] Darragh McCullough: Young people aren't getting a wait. We just walked out [00:54:55] through the field here. By the way, this is potato star. Correct. Uh, so this is [00:55:00] a, a really good example of technology in action that people [00:55:05] drive by in their cars every day. And they, it, it doesn't look like [00:55:10] much, in fact it looks like a bit of a mess.

[00:55:12] Darragh McCullough: But, um, this is technology at work. So, uh, [00:55:15] in, in 30 seconds, this is a maze plant, right. And [00:55:20] it is native to tropical areas. So there's no business growing in Ireland. Yeah. [00:55:25] Uh, but we are able to grow in Ireland through a, the use of, uh, [00:55:30] uh, varieties that hack this climate. And b, the way we plant [00:55:35] it and the way we plant it, is under this fill.

[00:55:38] Darragh McCullough: And what the Fillem does [00:55:40] is it creates a little greenhouse. So if you just go a bit further up here, [00:55:45] you can see. Initially the plastic is covering the seed. It's like a little [00:55:50] greenhouse there. The seed rockets out of the ground. And then, uh, because the plastic is [00:55:55] so soft, the seed, the plant is able to push its way up through it, right?

[00:55:59] Darragh McCullough: And this [00:56:00] is made out of a starch derivative. It literally melts in the sun. So [00:56:05] the sunlight, the uv, and the water mean that that plastic just literally [00:56:10] dissolves into natural, biodegradable components, melts into the [00:56:15] soil and disappears. And that to me is like. Wow. Yeah.

[00:56:19] Gerry Scullion: That's so cool. [00:56:20] Uh, that's absolutely amazing.

[00:56:21] Gerry Scullion: Like, 'cause I was speaking to Tom beforehand. I was like, you know what's been [00:56:25] grown up here? And he says, just restarted. He says, it's not plastic. And I was like, alright. Okay. That was one of my questions. Like, you know, [00:56:30] how would you balance that out with the, the pH of the soil and what was looking, this has been a

[00:56:34] Darragh McCullough: whole [00:56:35] journey in itself.

[00:56:36] Darragh McCullough: I mean, this plastic technology was first introduced back in the [00:56:40] nineties and we tried it on this farm, but it didn't, uh, it didn't work [00:56:45] biodegrade properly and you are plowing to the ground. And it was back in the time [00:56:50] when maybe people had kind of went, ah, sure. Look, it just disappears around. Don't worry about it.

[00:56:53] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. You

[00:56:54] Gerry Scullion: know, one of [00:56:55] the pieces, like I mentioned, I actually gave, uh, a lender one of my books by John Thakura, [00:57:00] and we speak about the impact of machinery on the soil and how it compresses it and how [00:57:05] there's the nutrients have been, you know, through commercialization and industrialization is [00:57:10] actually kind of eroded to profitability of the soil.

[00:57:14] Gerry Scullion: You've been [00:57:15] talking about a new tractor. Okay. Yeah. Like, so the mach, you got a new tractor, he's like, Jeremy Clarkson over here. I know you don't want [00:57:20] that compar comparison. That's all right. But what does that look like? Um, you know, h how [00:57:25] do you measure the, the use of machinery on the soil? And have you seen any correlation between that, [00:57:30] uh, that heavy impact of big machinery on the soil versus the yield, [00:57:35]

[00:57:35] Darragh McCullough: the impact of, uh, soil, soil health, uh, massive topic, um, [00:57:40] and such an important one.

[00:57:41] Darragh McCullough: You know, we've been losing soil, uh, uh, [00:57:45] millions and millions of tons of soil every year. Yeah. Desertification, um, [00:57:50] erosion. Um, the organic matter content of soil is being reduced, [00:57:55] uh, as we continue to till them and, uh, basically [00:58:00] pulverize them. So, um, how, how, what's happening? How do we stop [00:58:05] this and, and how do we, um, uh, survive into the future?

[00:58:09] Darragh McCullough: [00:58:10] Well. Uh, the, the, there's, uh, a couple of subtle, but major [00:58:15] changes have been happening on farms. So what you're finding is less and less [00:58:20] plow, uh, techniques. So the, the traditional way of, uh, uh, [00:58:25] turn the furrow, turn inverting the soil completely, [00:58:30] um, so that, uh, you bury the weeds and you create a, a loose soil seed bed.[00:58:35]

[00:58:35] Darragh McCullough: Forget about it because you're releasing carbon into the atmosphere. [00:58:40] You're, um, disturbing the, uh, the biome in the soil. And when [00:58:45] you owe you to scratch a line to insert the seed, now that works for a certain [00:58:50] number of crops like arable grain cereals. But if you're gonna plant [00:58:55] spuds, you still need a fine, uh, soil and you have to till all of [00:59:00] the field to make it.

[00:59:01] Darragh McCullough: To make a take. Yeah. And, and, uh, uh, your question [00:59:05] about the tractors. I mean, we, I've got a little vintage, uh, gray [00:59:10] Fergie tractor here on the farm that my granddad actually would've, uh, used, [00:59:15] uh, 70 years ago. Um, uh, and the tractor [00:59:20] today is a monster in comparison to it. Yeah. And the tractor that I own today, [00:59:25] our modern tractor isn't one of the biggest tractors out there at all.

[00:59:27] Darragh McCullough: Right. But. [00:59:30] I mean, if we want Irish farmers to be able to compete [00:59:35] on international markets, we can't hamstring them or expect them to go [00:59:40] around with little dinky vintage, uh, machines, um, and, and [00:59:45] compete with, you know, the Dutch growers or the US growers or whatever. So, [00:59:50] uh, uh, the, the tech, the technology on the tractors though is, [00:59:55] uh, is also moving.

[00:59:56] Darragh McCullough: So what we're seeing is number one, more tracked [01:00:00] tractors. So, uh, if a tractor is on a big track as opposed to a tire, [01:00:05] um, it's, it's, um, uh, creating less, uh, soil compaction. [01:00:10] Uh, the second thing is GPS, uh, is allowing [01:00:15] some farmers to say, listen, this is the track way that I'm going to drive all the [01:00:20] time, and I will never go drive outside of that.

[01:00:22] Darragh McCullough: Right? Yeah, yeah. So all the soil in the rest of the field [01:00:25] is immaculate. Cool. So there is, there is ways that we're harnessing [01:00:30] technology to try and, and counteract the impact.

[01:00:32] Gerry Scullion: Well, one other question you mentioned about the Irish [01:00:35] Farmer's Journal and you, you write for that.

[01:00:38] Darragh McCullough: Are you the editor for it? Uh, no.

[01:00:39] Darragh McCullough: I [01:00:40] used to write for the Farmer's Journal, but I now write for the Farming Independent.

[01:00:44] Gerry Scullion: Farming [01:00:45] Independent,

[01:00:45] Darragh McCullough: okay. Yeah, it's like United and, and, and City. Yeah. Alright. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[01:00:49] Gerry Scullion: So [01:00:50] you're involved with kind of writing for the farming community? Yeah. [01:00:55] What are their biggest fears at the moment for their profession?[01:01:00]

[01:01:00] Gerry Scullion: Um, apart from the age of the farmer?

[01:01:01] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. So succession is a big one. Um, [01:01:05] I suppose one of the things that I have mixed emotions about [01:01:10] is, uh, whether. Farmers are [01:01:15] being pilled by, uh, environmental organizations and the general [01:01:20] public for being big polluters. Right? Yeah. And the reason I say I have mixed emotions about it is that [01:01:25] there is no other, um.

[01:01:28] Darragh McCullough: Business out there [01:01:30] that has as big an impact on every acre of our landscape than farming. [01:01:35] Yeah. Because farmers, uh, are the custodians of the [01:01:40] land, you know, three quarters of the, the, the landscape, the, the Earth's [01:01:45] the L surface. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, of course they have a [01:01:50] big impact. Um, and I think farm leaders have [01:01:55] been guilty of poo-pooing the environmental [01:02:00] concerns.

[01:02:00] Darragh McCullough: I mean, for years there was, oh, you know, climate change is somebody [01:02:05] else's problem. And, uh, you know, the Chinese are pumping out loads of, [01:02:10] uh, emissions with their coal stations and blah, blah, blah. And sure. Art doesn't really count. [01:02:15] And, uh, eh, that wasn't good enough.

[01:02:18] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[01:02:19] Darragh McCullough: Um, [01:02:20] and I think it did farmers a disservice because it was, in my opinion, poor [01:02:25] leadership,

[01:02:25] Gerry Scullion: what you've done here.

[01:02:27] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Is it for every farmer? [01:02:30]

[01:02:30] Darragh McCullough: No. No. Um, and the reason I say that, and here, listen, Jerry, [01:02:35] just in case anyone's under any illusion out there, I am not one of Ireland's top [01:02:40] farmers. I know. Yeah. Uh, I, I in fact should be told I'm not a very good [01:02:45] farmer. I, I, I not patient with stock. I get bored [01:02:50] sitting in a tractor.

[01:02:51] Darragh McCullough: Um, I probably, [01:02:55] I don't spend enough time in crops to know exactly all the diseases and how [01:03:00] things are going, uh, exactly to day by day, so I don't hold myself up [01:03:05] as a, as opposed to boy. Yeah, exactly. Um, [01:03:10] uh, what, but what I am lucky to have here is a very, [01:03:15] uh, a, a good farm in with light soils, workable [01:03:20] soils, so we could kind of grow those unusual types of crops like after bulbs and [01:03:25] uh, and that type of stuff.

[01:03:27] Darragh McCullough: Uh, you know, we're also [01:03:30] close to, uh, a lot of urban development, a lot of, uh, population [01:03:35] centers. So it's a good location for retail offerings. Absolutely. [01:03:40] The proximity. Yeah, we're close to the coast, so we have a mild climate and all the rest of, and every [01:03:45] farm is different. So, you know, uh, the, the neighbor's farm is a bit more [01:03:50] hilly than mine, so wouldn't be that well suited to maybe groan, um, uh, [01:03:55] bulbs, uh, going that way.

[01:03:57] Darragh McCullough: The land might be a little bit heavier. You go [01:04:00] 50 miles the other way. The soil type is completely different, so every [01:04:05] farm is going to have to have a bespoke kind of a, and there is [01:04:10] no. There is no blueprint, there is no formula that, you know, this is how you [01:04:15] should run your farm. Because, you know, some farmers, it would be brilliant at machines [01:04:20] and other farmers are brilliant at stock.

[01:04:21] Darragh McCullough: Yeah. Other farms, uh, farmers, you know, struggle to [01:04:25] get outta bed in the morning. So, you know, how you, what you do on your farm will [01:04:30] depend on a lot of different factors. Yeah.

[01:04:31] Gerry Scullion: Well, one thing you are definite is this is a brilliant [01:04:35] example of, um, a really strong customer experience and a strong experience in terms of [01:04:40] educating the next generation.

[01:04:41] Gerry Scullion: So we'll wrap it up here. Thanks for showing us around. Such a pleasure. [01:04:45] Absolutely. Brilliant. Thank you so much. There we

[01:04:46] Darragh McCullough: go. A little, uh, momentum of your visit. Here

[01:04:48] Gerry Scullion: we go. [01:04:50] Thanks so much. No, that's really [01:04:55] cool.

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