Gerry Scullion:Carol Massa, delighted to have you on the show. We've been back and forth for the last couple of months. I think it is, um, since we set this one up, maybe we'll start off for our listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and what you do.

Carol Massa:Sure. Thank you for having me here. This is very exciting.

My name is Carol Massa. And, um, for the past 10 years, I've been working in design. I started in graphics. Went to advertising and the last seven years I transitioned to strategic design, service design. And I worked, uh, in Fortune 500 companies here in the United States, really helping enable that shift of mindset from an operational standpoint to a human centered, uh, standpoint.

And then for the past couple of years, I actually decided to focus in one industry to really, you know, hold onto the practice and make a career out of it, which is in healthcare. So I've been in healthcare and now it's going to be my third year, which is very exciting. 

Gerry Scullion:So on that, that journey there that you mentioned there, you worked in advertising and it seems to be, um, a lot of people that I've spoken to over the last, uh, maybe five, six years, they've worked in advertising at some point and then they kind of have a moment and then they, they move on to something that's a little bit more closer to their purpose.

Right. Was that a journey that you went on? 

Carol Massa:For sure. Yes. So during my couple of years in that industry, my initial impression was that I would just, you know, change the world through, uh, campaigns and communication design, right? Disruption. When you're young, you always feel like the visual, the, the visual part of advertising changes minds, right?

Yeah. Um, but when I got to, um, to actually experience it, it became very mechanical and not that much of an artistic world changing, uh, piece that I was looking for. 

Gerry Scullion:What actually happens in advertising? Cause there's people out there listening to the podcast who are, might be from a marketing or an advertising or even just students looking to learn a little bit more about what we're going to be talking today is about strategic design and organizations, but I'd love to get your perspective on.

What was actually happening within the advertising space? Um, you said there, it was very mechanical, but, and you spoke about the visual, but how do you interpret and how do you kind of process that in your, in your mind now that you've kind of moved on from that part of your life? 

Carol Massa:Yeah, I, so there is a lot in terms of, so I refer to the mechanical piece because we, we always think advertising, it's something you can just create that campaign right from the brilliant, uh, ideas that come up in a brainstorming session.

However, the, the. The industry of advertising, there are actually a lot of rules in terms of collaring, in terms of processing colors and printing. So that really enabled me to really expand and see how technical and mechanical it is. And because I was directing campaigns, I had to follow a certain pattern of design.

So it didn't allow me necessarily to experiment. And that's the part that I liked the most. And that's why I've been doing strategic design. Where we can experiment and really push that thinking, um, in any shape or form in any level, right? 

Gerry Scullion:So let's talk about that type of design you just said there. So what is that type of design?

Because you've titled it strategic design. And I'd love to know a little bit more around the nuances or the differences between strategic design and say service design. Or are there any differences, do you think? 

Carol Massa:Yeah. Um, and that's a very personal answer that I'm about to share because it has to do with my experience and how I've been shaping my skills to do this, this type of, uh, work.

So, uh, I use actually both, uh, terms, strategic design and service design very, um, constantly

because, uh, when we're designing for experience, When we're designing for services, we are, we are taking a different take on what that design artifact looks like, because we're designing for, and I'm going to quote a book here designed for the invisible. So we're designing for the things that people actually don't.

See, because we're designing the mechanisms, right? And the interconnectivities of different pieces of a service to come together and people to experience that in gain from it. And so that's how I shaped that, that skill. And, uh, it's something that not every organization is ready for. For it, or it's not set up for that.

Yeah. Um, and that's also part of what I've been educating and 

Gerry Scullion:So you mentioned there like the fortune 500 businesses that you've been fortunate enough to work with. Do you think it's a case that, um, Businesses that already have an existing design function that might be a design for decoration kind of approach to thinking about design.

Do you think it can evolve from that existing function or does it require some sort of radical rethinking and getting some sort of external consultation? What's your thoughts on the best approaches to get them from A to C almost? 

Carol Massa:Yeah, how much time do we have? Yeah, 

Gerry Scullion:we do have time. So that's one of the luxuries of that.

Okay. So I don't know how long is a piece of string as well. And I know like every business is different, but, but generally speaking, if you have an organization that really sort of, um, encourages and respects, you know, that whole kind of advertising mindset, the marketing mindset, and then you're getting them closer to strategic and service thinking.

Um, can it evolve from. That world, do you 

Carol Massa:believe? Yeah. So let me see if I can break down the nuances of the question here. So I would say the first thing when you mentioned, is it, is there a way for organizations that have a set up design team to evolve, to do strategic design work? I think for that to happen, it's really going to depend on what type of value.

You want to deliver, um, companies, for example, automotive, right? There is a value there that you can shape into a service very. Very easily, because you're not only getting a car, you're, you know, transporting yourself to that dream car, right? So there's a lot of emotional, functional value that you can deliver when designing for that service.

Interesting thing about healthcare, and I'll speak to my experience because I feel like it's a good comparison here, From a very mechanical automotive, automotive to a healthcare. So in healthcare, the value, it's not something that it's perceived because you're seeking help. So to design for that, it has to be strategic in nature.

I don't think there's a way for healthcare just to think, and I'm not, not talking about the marketing department that does the campaigns and. social media. I'm talking about the ways in which we're designing the actual experience of you going to an appointment. Or you're doing a telehealth visit so all of that is very strategic because you're going through something very emotional and very heavy in terms of What you're trying to find you may not have an answer to because sometimes in health you you cannot find a diagnosis So there's all these Constraints and complexities of the human, you know, body that you're treating that in a service.

And that for me is very exciting. And I don't see how strategic design, it's not embedded that 

Gerry Scullion:way. So they can be used interchangeably is what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. 

Carol Massa:Actually, if you're doing this type of work where value is being translated. into something that it's very, uh, complex, right?

Emotionally complex, functionally complex, and you don't actually get one artifact out of it. You Gerry Scullion:something. There was an illustration that I saw. That I believe you created, and that I thought was really interesting with the personal bias at the center of it.

Do you want to talk to us a little bit more around the origins of that visualization or that illustration, where it came about and what the factors are that are included in it as well? I'll put a link to it in the show notes folks, so you can click in and have a look at it at the same time. 

Carol Massa:Sure. Um, so that, that visual was actually one of the first visuals I created for the strategic design and organizations course I teach, um, virtually at the SDM service design at work academy.

And that course actually came from a gap that I saw that designers that are transitioning to do the type of work we're talking about here don't necessarily take the time to put themselves. into a context, a personal context, and, uh, and, and. The overall context of where they came from, uh, and overall context where they sit in the organization.

So there's a lot of, I would say almost, um, reflection work that we don't get to do when you, when you go from, you know, you just graduated and you start working, so you just go into this. Action plan of getting things done and you don't get the time to reflect. So that visual represents a lot of, almost a, almost a, a pause moment in your, what you're doing, where you are, where you're coming from to really understand.

Where you're sitting and what type of design can you actually, uh, be comfortable designing and sorry for the, uh, yeah, because, uh, if you're not aware who you are in terms of what you can bring to the table, it's going to be really hard for you to identify where you're working. And where you want to live and what type of professional you want to be because those two are very inter, interconnected and interlinked.

Gerry Scullion:So walk me through, um, it's like, I mean, I'm seeing a thread in my mind here at the moment from your own personal journey into where you're at now and you're talking about this stuff. Um, Coming from advertising into healthcare, what are the practices that you've, uh, implemented into your own life that helped you align closer towards those purposes?

Because you don't land in healthcare one of the most, I guess, dysfunctional, especially in the U. S. Um, what was that journey like for you? 

Carol Massa:What I, what I had to kind of create my own way to, 

Gerry Scullion:it's similar to what I went on, like, you know, over the last decade, but I, I'd love to hear any recommendations, any books, things that worked, that didn't 

Carol Massa:work.

Yeah. So there is definitely a thread and I'm not sure if it has to do with healthcare, but it definitely has to do growing. Um, as a professional in this field, which is related to networking, I cannot stress enough how networking gets you to where you want to go. 

Gerry Scullion:That's networking, not, not working. It just came up.

Not working does, does an awful lot for you as well, but networking is even better. 

Carol Massa:Correct. Yes. Networking. Sorry for my, for my constellation here. Um, so. For networking is something that it's a practice and you actually have to take the time to do it. And I don't think some professionals, uh, understand how much they can gain from that interaction.

And I'm not, I'm not talking about going to conferences only or having, you know, conversations or just. publishing something and people interact with it. I'm talking about really expanding your network beyond countries and have people you can talk to from anywhere. Um, where people come from and from the course that I teach, it's a global audience and the patterns of struggles and challenges.

They are the same. And it's so interesting to see that the questions that come up are very similar. Uh, what they're trying to do is very similar because we're all humans and we're all working for organizations. Of course, we're going to see patterns across the world. However, there's so much value in to see how people, uh, approach and actually articulate how they solve problems, which is different.

There are nuances there that you pick up and it's very helpful for you to. Absorb that and create your own way, your own vision, your own point of view of just doing your work and that really helps talk things through. Do you 

Gerry Scullion:think, and this is a kind of an open ended question, but typically in the Fortune 500 businesses, the outcome is growth, increased sales, increased metrics around that.

When you bring people together from a diverse background, Those outcomes can be different, okay, so the outcomes in government could be ensuring the quality of the service, whatever it is, with those two variances in the outcomes. Do the factors for success change to, to, to the ingredients change for strategic design and service design to evolve?

Um, are those criteria similar or I'd love to get your thoughts on that a little bit more because it's something that, that I plays my mind. It's not a, you know, a recipe book that everyone can just follow and it works depending on the organizational outcome and what they're trying to achieve. Surely the factors, um.

Kind of differ as well and the ingredients change, 

Carol Massa:right? And, um, I worked in companies that you can consider them to be global companies, um, especially in telecommunications and, uh, you could say consumer goods retail, uh, like beverage. Company. Coke! 

Gerry Scullion:Yeah. Was

Carol Massa:that a while. I think they'll be okay by now. Um, so in that scale of work, you're not only, so the strategic design there, I think it becomes even more valuable because people are used to, because everything is such a large scale and everybody's doing their piece. work. They're not used to break out of that daily job.

Um, and I'll, I'll, I'll give you an example to see if it illustrates what the point that I'm trying to make. That was a project we were trying to really identify. How, uh, help, uh, desk experience could look like for employees. And what happens there is if you don't necessarily realize that they're sitting in different countries, you actually forget some of the variables of needs that they might have specifically for each country.

So having that collaborative. Diversity, not only of people in the room, but also designers that can really see and expand that view to really ask those questions for us culture. I think it definitely makes a difference. Healthcare. Same thing. Yeah. I live in New York. You go to Queens. I think you hear six to seven languages in, as you walk 10 steps.

So it's something that you have to become almost, uh, an expert of awareness. Right to, to do this work. And that definitely brings, uh, that very, as far as a team Yeah. That, that builds with time. Right. Okay. 

Gerry Scullion:So the strategic design in organizations course that you're running at the moment, um. Obviously, like the whole kind of industry is evolving at the moment, especially in the US.

I know there's a lot of people moving and I think there's still quite a large amount of people exiting organizations that they're just after the pandemic and so forth. How is strategic design evolving? Um, in the U S like it's because the industry is changing all the time. Um, how are you seeing it?

Cause you started giving this course in 2020 mid pandemic. Is that first year of the pandemic? I can't remember who I am anymore. It was April, 2020, April, 2020. Um, I think it was March, 2020 in Ireland, but I think the U S we're like, Oh, we're not sure. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely here. 

Carol Massa:So I met the course. Of the course, 

Gerry Scullion:exactly.

I was like, oh, we've got differing dates when the pandemic started. But, um, what does what does it look like from your perspective and what are you watching for at the moment to include, because I know you're going to be running that course again. And again, I have no affiliation with the SDN or the course or any of that kind of stuff, but it looks really interesting.

What are you looking at now at the moment, um, as factors that could be included in that course? 

Carol Massa:From a U. S. market evolution perspective. Yeah, 

Gerry Scullion:pretty much. 

Carol Massa:So, from the moment I started until now, the participants that interact with me in this course, they're, they, they look for different things. So in the beginning was more of a definition.

What is service design? What do we do? What are the principles? And now the evolution for professional, I'll talk the professional side first for actually the practitioners and then like the actual application of that, which is, they kind of, Live in different levels, in my opinion, so from a professional standpoint, what I see the practitioners looking for now is to really, um, connect, uh, their practice to sustainability systems thinking.

So they're really trying to expand the maturity of what. Design, strategic design, or service design can do in a much larger scale so that it can have a larger impact. And I think the going out to the market perspective, the market, especially government, um, like digital services here, uh, in the U S they have, um, the U S digital services, they have an amazing service design team that it's helping reshape specific, uh, interaction, digital interactions.

For the entire country. So I see a lot of that strategic work really moving to this, I would say, uh, community, national impact type of thinking to do something that means something. Um, because You're trying to, as a designer, you want to, I'll bring that, that, uh, you know, child dream back here again. You want to change the world.

You want to help people think differently, live differently, experience things differently. So I think moving to that social impact aspect is something that I've seen evolve and it's something that I also feel like the pandemic in a way accelerated that because people started thinking about. And, you know, all the social determinants of Dynamics that you see in a society.

And I think that woke up people to a different type of mindset now. 

Gerry Scullion:Yeah. Can I talk to you a little bit more around that visualization? Because, you know, the more I look at it, the more I like it, and I'm not going to look at it anymore because I don't want to fall in love. Um, but like, well, that's a joke, bad joke.

Anyway, so in the middle of you got the personal biases, but in the top part of the circle, you've got resources, structure, culture, and time. Walk me through, um, how would you explain this? You put it on the wall. How should it be used? 

Carol Massa:Right. So this is actually, again, almost like a reflection exercise that I ask people to, to think through this.

But the, the, the reason why there are two layers, the one on the top, it's very, almost top down, right? Time, culture, structure, resources. And then you take almost like a deep dive into your own, uh, universe, which is community, decision makers, policies, and environment. So the idea here is there you are inserted is pretty much to read like this.

You are inserted in a specific. Time of your life, right? Working, uh, being part of this culture, working a specific social economical infrastructure, and you have specific resources available to you because you're part of this culture and this infrastructure that you have above you. This 

Gerry Scullion:organization, this ecosystem, 

Carol Massa:it could be the organization.

Yes, correct. And it, what happens also is when you start to compare how service designers do this type of work across the world, they're going to have different infrastructures and different resources. On top of the culture of that country. So really breaking down those levels, you start to realize that some, um, some design communities might actually have to push for more innovative ways to do work because they may not have enough infrastructure resources to do the work.

It's simple, it's simple as that in a way. And then when you get to, uh, the different layers underneath of community decision makers, policy, and environment. You really start to think about, okay, now that I'm inserted in this mega, you know, universe, I still have the community, my neighbors, the people that work with me every day, my co workers, right?

We are bound within people that make decisions for us. We don't make decisions about financial, uh, you know, takes on the company, but that's going to happen regardless. Right. We don't make decisions about policies that are being made about things that are happening in terms of, uh, time off. I'm just giving like silly examples, but that's just to illustrate.

And we're not, we are not part of making, uh, we're not part of, um, making decisions about the environment that we're going to be working on. Uh, we may have. We may be asked for recommendations, but there are people that are not us. They're making all these decisions to set up the environment and the ecosystem for you to work in.

And you then come in with your own bias, your own experience to try to find, uh, interesting ways to, to, to adapt. Right. And you actually immerse.

Gerry Scullion:So is it a, an evaluative framework then that you can basically have participants or have stakeholders place where they see the problems? What what's how do you like that? 

Carol Massa:I think that's a great idea. I have for free, this was mostly created for design practitioners to take the time. And really analyze, okay, we cannot, we, for us to assume that we are controlling the design of things.

It's not fair because there are so many layers around us. That are dictating from a top down, bottom up ways in which we're going to do the work. So that's the, the interesting mix there. 

Gerry Scullion:Yeah. I remember, um, and this is not me kind of like trying to weave into a situation of power here, but I remember I had a similar map years ago called Horizon to Action. I love, your, your one is much better than the one I had. It was an early draft to try and articulate the certain aspects of a service, like in time and interactions and so forth. But this one here looks very close to a stakeholder map, okay. And this is the reason why I was asking, um, was How you're using it, how you, how it's being applied within an organization.

It makes sense that it's from the practitioner's perspective, but I love having, I think there's a risk there by having it just from the practitioner's perspective, but I love having the externals, the executives feed into it and being able to problem identify, you know, what, what are the, the intersecting points of a problem where they believe it could be?

And that, that's, that's how I initially saw it. I was like, Oh, this is nice because it's like, like a cake piece. It might be like. Thicker on the decision makers. It might be thicker on policy. It might be thinner on environment. So you can actually do it, plot a graph. And that's, that's how I initially saw it.

And I was like, Oh, this is, this is kind of what I'm talking about. Because for the last year or two, I guess, during the pandemic, I was really into complexity theory. I still am. And, um, that whole understanding of systems thinking as regards. how we approach problem solving or our craft of service design within organizations.

And too often, I believe, we treat these complex situations with complicated approaches. And, um, what I like about what You're doing here is you're talking and you're, you're kind of, you're opening the box for those conversations to happen. That's the way I see it and I'm hearing it as well. So, so kudos to you.

Am I on the right page and as regards, that was your intent with the, the illustration or am I completely talking? You know, 

Carol Massa:Oh, my gosh. No, I what I love about, you know, just again, going back to networking and just talking through some ideas and application of things that we see gaps on is to have the ability to evolve what you have intentionally designed.

I could definitely see a very interesting exercise with, for example, uh, CTO.

Gerry Scullion:As a precursor to a workshop. Right. Having this. It's, you know, plotted on a, um, kind of like a target, if you know what I mean, where you see the problems and then play it back on where everyone saw the problems within a workshop environment. I guarantee you'd see the problem identification space being like, Oh, well we think it's this.

We think it's that. And it becomes a really powerful alignment tool. Yeah. 

Carol Massa:And I wonder how it would. There's actually, uh, the click down the slide for 

Gerry Scullion:the class, which I don't get access to, 

Carol Massa:is actually many of these circles popping up because 

Gerry Scullion:you gotta do the course to see that folks only get the free preview.

Carol Massa:Like, okay, um, so you, yeah, you do like, the idea is, okay, now that you realize and identified, what is your. Micro universe and what's going on in there, the entire organization is doing the same because organizations are made by people and for people. Yeah, that's true. That layer of human complexity, I think for designers, that's a gap I see.

We don't take the time to try to understand because we're so into. Let's, let's get to work. Let's do the work. 

Gerry Scullion:I've got the spade in my hand. Let's start digging. 

Carol Massa:Yeah. And I'm, I'm not talking about like slowing down the project or like backtracking the project. I'm just talking about taking a few moments to realize and go through this almost checklist in your head.

Are we thinking about this in different layers? Are we considering the state, all, all the different types of stakeholders and dynamics? For this project or this experience, but it starts with you, right? So that's why it's very like the personal bias. It's, it's in the center because it 

Gerry Scullion:starts with you. Um, so just going back to one of the questions I asked probably, you know, earlier is your own journey through that, uh, to self identification.

And you talked about networking be really important. Totally agree. Um, networking is. One of the most powerful things you can do for your career and also just getting diverse perspectives and speaking to people from different parts of the business. What other things have worked for you to kind of go...

You know, I am Carol Massa, I am, um, you know, who I am, and I know that I'm going to do a good job for Northwell, um, where you're currently at now at the moment. What does that look like in terms of a practice? Do you, do you do daily practices? Do you do monthly practices? Do you do yearly practices? This is the stuff that I'm really interested in.

For me, personally. Don't the listeners, it's just between me and you. So what does it look like? What whatcha doing? 

Carol Massa:So I'll tell you my secret. That's my, come on, hit me . So I actually borrow a lot of things from rocket science. Oh, okay. Okay. I, I, uh, I, I set myself. A couple of minutes a day just to look, uh, into NASA and to really look at anything related to rocket science and science and how people are coming together, people on the moon and in Mars.

And for me, it's something that that passion has grown almost like a layer underneath of this because there's so much from science. That we can learn and especially that type of complicated and complex. Solving, try to see how much of it can actually be translated into a human dynamic because in organizations, it's human dynamic.

We're not taking a technical thing anywhere. Right. We're just trying to evolve something that people will interact with, that it's, it's different. I understand the difference, but for me, I get so much inspiration from, from that type of, uh, approach and material material and, um, Um, 

Gerry Scullion:Yeah, it's funny on that, um, I'm hopefully speaking to Dave Snowden in a couple of weeks from, you know, one of the complex, one of the pioneers and whenever you read some of Dave Snowden stuff, he talks about, I always, I was weird, like, you know, looking at NASA, like, you They're most incredible, you know, sort of things that they've done.

Um, we just naturally assume that they'd be complex, but if you look at Dave Snowden's descriptions of things, that's a complicated, um, approach because it's able to be broken down and understood. Um, you know, it's reciprocal, so you can actually do the same thing and get the same outcome output. Whereas when complex, we're in organizations.

And human beings, they are complex, um, and one of my friends, Melissa Nova, has a really nice, uh, uh, sort of story on that, where she said her boy, um, because human beings are completely like, they're complex beings. Unpredictable. Unpredictable. Seven o'clock in the kitchen. Um, you know, one morning they could want Coco Pops.

Seven o'clock the next morning they could want a hamburger and fries. It's, it's two, two, two unknowns. Right. And that's the nature of what we're trying to do. What are your thoughts, and this is probably going to be one of my last questions, so then you can breathe a big sigh of relief. Um, what are your thoughts around the limitations of service design and strategic design and Are we at that point where we really need to rethink and include other disciplines for where we're at?

Carol Massa:Yes. I think, um, I think my opinion is service design and practitioners are at a point that they think they can do the job by themselves. Yeah. Because they are equipped with the tools so they can do anything. Yeah. They can use a blueprint to change the entire process. Yeah. The problem is that's not how organizations work.

It's not going to be one blueprint, one session, one interview that it's going to change things. And that's why that that's why that understanding of how things work from any microcosm level is very important because you as a service designer. And as the practice itself needs to evolve to be. Uh, almost the experts of multidisciplinary Yeah.

Completely acts of, you know, it can be anything because if it's multidisciplinary, you are borrowing the expertise of the company, of the organization. Yeah. And you're, you're, you're helping people. To think differently together. Yeah, totally. Instead of having, no, design is going to solve for everything.

Nope. No, no, no, no, no, no. We're experimenters. And that's where I think, that's where I think the, the main. Challenge is today. Yeah. 

Gerry Scullion:So it's one of the challenges we have as well with community based activities where we, we look at case studies and people do talks and they're like, that's great. We're going to bring exactly the same thing and drop it into our organization and expect to get the same result.

It's not, it's just an experiment. It's just everything that we're doing are professional experimenters really at the end of the day like and see what works and measure it and let's move ahead multi experimental is how I, how I like to phrase it. 

Carol Massa:Yeah, there's some authors that use multidisciplinary and transdisciplinary.

Um, I'm not gonna be, you know, the judge of that, uh, but I do believe that this expansion of practice. Um, still hasn't happened. Yeah. I think it's pretty much We're on that point. Ego centric. 

Gerry Scullion:At this point. There's a, uh, an emerging ego from within large parts of the design community globally. Yep. And consultancies generally have that ego and that relationship to sell in that belief system into clients who don't know any better.

And it's, it's one of the pieces, it needs to come with a sense of humility. Um, and. You know, there's, there's some people out there talking about it, but I believe it's, you know, something that we can all probably reflect on an awful lot more and start encouraging and nudging those conversations within the organization.

Maybe we're not going to save the day. Maybe we're going to be just like anyone else, trying to improve the system. 

Carol Massa:Yeah. I mean, I don't want to end on a note that I don't believe in this life. But I do believe that design brings a different perspective to the table, that people are not used to think about it because they're very focused on their daily work.

Yeah. So we have that power to be that catalyst or a facilitator or a guide, 

Gerry Scullion:right? That is true. The facilitator of the conversations. Um, and it's, it's one of the, of our 

Carol Massa:super stint. And if you bring the rocket science together, you're good. 

Gerry Scullion:Well, look, Carol, um, I know you're big on LinkedIn. You love us.

You're like me. I LinkedIn. Um, what are the other places where people can reach out and connect with you and learn more about the work that you're doing in Northwell and generally about the courses that you're running? 

Carol Massa:Yeah. So, uh, I would say first and foremost, uh, hit me up on LinkedIn. But then I'm also a service design, uh, practitioner.

So you can find me as a, uh, SDN accredited service designer at the sdn. org community. Um, I'm always available for virtual coffees. I'll put that in the air and see who would like to reach out for virtual coffees. That's something that I get. You know, a lot of, you know, value and enjoyment. Um, 

Gerry Scullion:what's the, what's the New York service design scene like, you know, cause I know you worked with Patrick in, um, Harmonic, um, and you know, Atlanta, it looks like there's some cool stuff happening down there, but the New York scene and the service design network scene, I know Antonio, um, was there as well, but what's it like at the moment in terms of the maturity of the organizations looking for service designers?

Carol Massa:I, I will have to get back to you on that because I just got here a month ago. 

Gerry Scullion:Oh, okay. You're relatively new to New York. 

Carol Massa:I am, I am new to New York. Um, however, I do know, uh, Natalie, who is the founder of this chapter of, uh, New York chapter. I'm actually having dinner with her, um, and I just said that. So, you know, everybody, cut that out.

Gerry Scullion:So if anyone in New York is in the design scene wants to, you know, make Carol feel welcome, check them out on LinkedIn and add them and, you know, Make coffee plans, even if it's online, whatever it is, like, you know, they're, they're new to the city. So, um, someday I'd like to get, I've never been to New York.

It's one of those places. Um, I'd love to get to someday, but yeah, get the little airplanes out and get Jerry over there. Like, you know, well look, it was absolutely fantastic. I like to end all the episodes with thanking the guests for their energy, their vulnerability, their openness, putting themselves on the spot. It takes, you know, um, you know, Thank you. Time of your day to do these things.

So I really appreciate you coming on and talking about the work that you're doing. I know the listeners are going to find it really, really interesting. So thank you so much, Carol. 

Carol Massa:Thank you, Gerry. Thank you for everything. This has been awesome. And I'm really excited to see, you know, what else is there and how practitioners and the work of service design will keep evolving because that's what we do.

Gerry Scullion:Awesome.

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