Carrying Stories: Researcher Well-being and the Cost of Caring with Rachel Knight

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of this eight cd. My name is Jerry [00:00:05] Scion. Now a human-centered service design practitioner based in wonderful city of Dublin, Ireland. [00:00:10] In this episode, we are joined with Rachel Knight. Rachel Knight [00:00:15] is a fantastic freelance design researcher based in Wellington, New Zealand.[00:00:20]

[00:00:20] Gerry Scullion: There are three powerful takeaways for me in this one. The first one is research or wellbeing. [00:00:25] Which is one of the key reasons why myself and Rachel originally connected, and Rachel speaks [00:00:30] candidly about the emotional weight of design research and the toll that it can take [00:00:35] on us as practitioners when we do it, and how it's really important to set up the [00:00:40] right support for both design teams and practitioners.

[00:00:42] Gerry Scullion: Number two, we talk about the freelancer [00:00:45] real. We explore the unique risks and responsibilities as a freelance [00:00:50] researcher, especially in SEN sensitive social context. And then the third point [00:00:55] is human first reflection. Rachel shares how she's learned to identify [00:01:00] personal red flags pace herself. And make self-care non-negotiable.[00:01:05]

[00:01:05] Gerry Scullion: If you work in design, research, service design, human-centered design, or care [00:01:10] deeply about the ethics of engaging with people's lived experience, this [00:01:15] conversation's just for you. Then hit subscribe, share with your team, and let's build a more [00:01:20] human-centered practice, and you're gonna enjoy it. Rachel is awesome.

[00:01:23] Gerry Scullion: Let's jump straight in.[00:01:25] [00:01:30]

[00:01:34] Gerry Scullion: Rachel [00:01:35] Knight, delighted to have you on the podcast. We've been [00:01:40] messaging back and forth for, um, a couple of weeks. I think it's been a couple of weeks. [00:01:45] I saw your post. Um, it was actually four weeks ago, and once I saw [00:01:50] it, I was like, yeah. Um, but let's start off now. Maybe tell a little [00:01:55] bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:01:57] Rachel Knight: Yeah, sure. Um, so I will [00:02:00] start with my, my introduction in Maori.[00:02:05]

[00:02:06] Rachel Knight: Who am I?[00:02:10] [00:02:15]

[00:02:17] Rachel Knight: So what I said is, I'm Rachel and I [00:02:20] or have Lineage to the south island tribe of NI down [00:02:25] in Christchurch. Nice. Um, but I grew up in the opposite end of the island, [00:02:30] in the North Island.

[00:02:34] Rachel Knight: And I [00:02:35] now live in the beautiful in Wellington. So I love living here with my husband [00:02:40] and my cat, who we've already talked about. Um, and I'm a freelance design [00:02:45] researcher, so I've been freelancing for about two years now in the social impact sector. [00:02:50] Um, and my background is in design, both in agencies, uh, [00:02:55] in charity and in a small social impact agency as well.

[00:02:58] Rachel Knight: So yeah. That's amazing. [00:03:00]

[00:03:01] Gerry Scullion: That's the first time on the, the podcast we've had Maori spoken. [00:03:05] Really? I'm so to be. [00:03:10] Everything that's, you know, in, in New Zealand and how it handles [00:03:15] all the kind of, uh, I'm trying to think of the word. The re [00:03:20] patriarchy or the re

[00:03:22] Rachel Knight: indigenization maybe.

[00:03:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, I, [00:03:25] I've made a hames of that, but yeah, the, the whole, they've treated, uh, [00:03:30] the amalgamation.

[00:03:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, if you want, of the, the cultures, [00:03:35] um, because I see that around the world and when I was in Australia, I'd spoken to [00:03:40] many of the governments about the work that they do in that space, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but, [00:03:45] um, it's just great to, great to hear somebody, uh, you know, start a podcast off by [00:03:50] acknowledging the, the former peoples of of New Zealand, like, you know, [00:03:55] um.

[00:03:56] Gerry Scullion: So you're, I'm gonna go by the, the colonial name of [00:04:00] Wellington. You're based in Wellington? Yeah. Cool. Um, and I'm embarrassed to go by that [00:04:05] name 'cause I'm, I'm Irish and I'm trying to shed as much colonial, uh, skin [00:04:10] as possible my own life. Good shout. I love it. [00:04:15] Um, we're, we're going through it.[00:04:20]

[00:04:22] Gerry Scullion: Kind of triggered me to get in touch with you [00:04:25] and if you want I might read it out. Okay. To just to get started so people can get the context. [00:04:30] Yeah. And you start off by saying some of the hardest parts of design research are the ones that we're not [00:04:35] always trained for. Every project where I've listened to people's stories has [00:04:40] shifted how I see the world.

[00:04:41] Gerry Scullion: Many have changed me for the better, but [00:04:45] some have left scars. When people share traumatic experiences, these voices can stay [00:04:50] with you, and there's, if there's space, uh, no pro to, to process them and let them [00:04:55] go. I'm currently in the thick of interviewing, uh, Wu. Is that correct? [00:05:00] Uh, family, um, wa ano, [00:05:05] I, I'm probably making absolute aims of this as well for the Kpa [00:05:10] Kapa, uh, with the Southern Initiative and it's brought back memories of [00:05:15] projects where I hadn't yet learned the importance of self-care.

[00:05:19] Gerry Scullion: Hearing [00:05:20] a story isn't the same as living it, but when you listen empathetically [00:05:25] over and over without time to breathe process and release each one, it builds [00:05:30] up. Researchers often learn about ethics in terms of avoiding harm to [00:05:35] others, but we also need to learn how to avoid causing harm to [00:05:40] ourselves. So if you are working in social impact or hope to one day, please [00:05:45] remember the important work doesn't always need to be the heavy work of that.

[00:05:49] Gerry Scullion: Find a [00:05:50] heavy balance so you can engage deeply When. Heavy topics [00:05:55] often surface when you least expect it. People bring their whole selves regardless, [00:06:00] regardless of the scope or of the research questions. So plan for team support [00:06:05] and safety processes, even when you think it's a light topic. If you've [00:06:10] lived experience, it'll hit differently.

[00:06:12] Gerry Scullion: You might not be the right person for a project [00:06:15] if it puts your wellbeing and ability to stay grounded at risk. Give [00:06:20] yourself breathing room, try to keep interviews to one to two a day. Cramming them in might keep the [00:06:25] timeline short, but it will take its toll on the long run or in the long run. And if you know the [00:06:30] work would be heavy.

[00:06:30] Gerry Scullion: Plan for care if you can set aside a budget for therapy supervision [00:06:35] sessions to debrief and offload as you go. Or use your employer's [00:06:40] eap, your partner, cousins friends, might not have the emotional capacity to [00:06:45] hold it all for you. Block out and protect time to refill your cup, whatever [00:06:50] that looks like for you.

[00:06:50] Gerry Scullion: Book it in and plan around it. It's an essential part of the work, not a nice [00:06:55] to have. Um, so there's a whole PDF piece and I'm gonna link to this post [00:07:00] in the show notes, or if you're on YouTube in the description, um, go [00:07:05] along like it, share it. With your team and so forth. 'cause it's a great post. [00:07:10] Rachel, the question I have first of all, to get it started, first of all, thanks [00:07:15] for writing this post.

[00:07:16] Gerry Scullion: Um, and second of all, as a freelancer

[00:07:18] Rachel Knight: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Gerry Scullion: Where does [00:07:20] the, um, the responsibility lie in that self-care piece if you're working with your clients? [00:07:25]

[00:07:25] Rachel Knight: Yeah. Wow. That's a really good question. I mean, I think it ultimately [00:07:30] lies with yourself if you are freelancing. Um, I think that's always the [00:07:35] challenge, right?

[00:07:35] Rachel Knight: Is you don't have that team around you. And I'm, I'm really lucky that, um, [00:07:40] most of my clients very much feel like my team and that is really lovely. I have [00:07:45] clients who have really looked after me in, in these projects and other ones, but I do think [00:07:50] ultimately if you're running your own business, you need to be.

[00:07:54] Rachel Knight: Budgeting [00:07:55] for self-care, you need to be putting aside that money and that time and you [00:08:00] need to be designing it into your day to day. Um, because at the end of the day, [00:08:05] you are your own employer. Yeah. So I think you have to do it. So yeah, that's what I think [00:08:10]

[00:08:10] Gerry Scullion: the responsibility piece is, is depending on [00:08:15] how you frame it, is interesting because if you are working in a [00:08:20] space like you have by the sounds of it.

[00:08:24] Gerry Scullion: And your [00:08:25] employer pays for, or say your, the, the client in this instance, or the, [00:08:30] the employer pays for it. I was als also pretty kinda [00:08:35] suspicious over their relationship, potentially with the psychologist. [00:08:40] Mm-hmm. The agency that you're working with. Yeah. And not saying that any duty [00:08:45] of care could potentially be broken between the psychologist and the employer, but if [00:08:50] the work is contentious, I'd love to get your thoughts on the best [00:08:55] approaches for that because I think, um, I have a lived experience in that space.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Gerry Scullion: I didn't trust the people that, uh, were, were paying my bills. Yeah. And if they flagged something, [00:09:05] they're like. I wanna work on this project, it's my decision. And I didn't want them to say, actually, [00:09:10] you know what? We could probably take you off this project.

[00:09:12] Rachel Knight: Yeah, yeah. That's, it's a complex [00:09:15]

[00:09:15] Gerry Scullion: situation.

[00:09:15] Rachel Knight: Yeah.

[00:09:16] Rachel Knight: And I think, I mean, there, there's responsibility, but there's also [00:09:20] finances, right? Really practically speaking, things like therapy are not cheap and most [00:09:25] people can't afford it. Um, so I think from a really practical perspective. [00:09:30] EAP makes sense if that's just what you can afford. Absolutely.

[00:09:34] Gerry Scullion: And,

[00:09:34] Rachel Knight: um, [00:09:35]

[00:09:35] Gerry Scullion: so the people overseas, what does EAP mean?

[00:09:37] Rachel Knight: Sorry. I think it's like employment assistance program. [00:09:40] Okay. Usually it just means therapy that you can access through your employer. [00:09:45] Um, but obviously if you're freelancing, that's not a thing. So yeah, that, that conflict of interesting is. [00:09:50] Really interesting. And I think if you're in a situation where you can afford to get it [00:09:55] independently, great.

[00:09:56] Rachel Knight: I just don't think that's the reality for most people

[00:09:58] Gerry Scullion: I know. Yeah. If [00:10:00] you're like, I was lucky I was able to do it like private healthcare in in Australia, but I think it [00:10:05] was about $200 an hour for psychology. Yeah. And it was [00:10:10] amazing to have it. Like not only did. It helped me, but it actually helped [00:10:15] the project as well.

[00:10:15] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Because they, they were interested in the topic and they were able to support me. So [00:10:20] the, the person was almost like an extended version of the team? Yeah. For me, me being the team. [00:10:25] So, where does this come from in your own perspective? Because you said that [00:10:30] there's lots of conversations that echoed, um, you know, your, your [00:10:35] sort of previous experience.

[00:10:36] Gerry Scullion: Are you okay to talk about some of this stuff? Yeah,

[00:10:38] Rachel Knight: yeah, totally. [00:10:40] So, yeah, this project that I've been working on, it kind of, um, brought up memories [00:10:45] for me from working on topics probably about six years ago when I worked at a really, [00:10:50] uh, amazing little social change agency. Um mm-hmm. Which was called Innovate Change.[00:10:55]

[00:10:55] Rachel Knight: And, uh, I went from a kind of corporate design agency, uh, [00:11:00] straight into the deep end in the social impact sector. And I think my first project was on [00:11:05] homelessness in New Zealand and, and specifically Auckland.

[00:11:08] Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:11:09] Rachel Knight: things like [00:11:10] heart disease, mothers mental health, um, drug and alcohol addiction. So [00:11:15] quite quickly getting into some really, really intense, um.[00:11:20]

[00:11:21] Rachel Knight: While that was amazing and I had a super supportive, incredible team [00:11:25] around me who did put the right safety processes in place. I was very [00:11:30] naive and I didn't know the importance of some of these, [00:11:35] um, practices and didn't prioritize them enough. And so [00:11:40] I think now when I do this kind of work, I get a little bit of a, uh, a [00:11:45] red flag in my head and it reminded me, um.

[00:11:49] Rachel Knight: Take a moment [00:11:50] and to pause and to think about what did I learn from those previous projects. [00:11:55] Therefore, what do I need to put in place this time, um, when I do this work? So [00:12:00] although I shared it with other people, it was really just a reminder for myself, um, [00:12:05] to yeah, really think more intentionally about how I was gonna protect myself [00:12:10] and therefore the other people, uh, yeah, in this project I was working on.

[00:12:13] Rachel Knight: So that's kind of where it came [00:12:15] from in, in those previous projects I.[00:12:20]

[00:12:20] Gerry Scullion: Too often we think this just happens if you're working in the social impact space. [00:12:25] Mm. But it can work across when you're looking into other people's lives. Yeah. Um. [00:12:30] So when you're looking at, uh, you mentioned they were being naive [00:12:35] when you went into those and you, you had the support network around there.

[00:12:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Can you talk to me about what the mindset [00:12:40] was like at that point? Like obviously there was probably a strong fire and a burning inside that you wanted [00:12:45] to do good. Oh,

[00:12:46] yeah.

[00:12:46] Gerry Scullion: That, that's very typical when I coach. I know, you know, [00:12:50] people who were starting out

[00:12:51] like, I just wanna fix everything.

[00:12:52] Rachel Knight: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:53] Rachel Knight: Yeah. Hundred percent. So [00:12:55] walk me

[00:12:55] Gerry Scullion: through what, what your mindset was like at that time.

[00:12:57] Rachel Knight: Oh, I was just eager for it. It was like, [00:13:00] it was, um, my dream job. Um, anything like you [00:13:05] always said about the word gnarly, the gnarly of the topic, the more interested I [00:13:10] was gnarly. Um, so yeah, as soon as, as soon as my manager at the time [00:13:15] said, you know, do you wanna work on this homelessness project?

[00:13:17] Rachel Knight: I'm like, oh, of course. It sounds amazing. Yeah. [00:13:20] Um. And I just didn't know what I was really getting myself into. [00:13:25] I think as designers. We do [00:13:30] have the mindset and the belief that we can and should change the world, and that's a [00:13:35] very powerful belief to have, but it's also a huge [00:13:40] responsibility if you are going into complex places where you can't change things.[00:13:45]

[00:13:45] Rachel Knight: And then you hear these stories about these broken systems and how it's impacting [00:13:50] people's lives. Um, you walk away with that weight and you [00:13:55] hold it for a very long time. So, yeah. So if

[00:13:57] Gerry Scullion: you could go back, yeah. Imagine we, we had this [00:14:00] magic wand mm-hmm. And we went back to that time and you were able to [00:14:05] spend one minute with Rachel at that time, and you could, you could [00:14:10] say something for one minute into their ears to prepare them.

[00:14:13] Gerry Scullion: What would it be? [00:14:15]

[00:14:16] Oh.

[00:14:18] Rachel Knight: I don't think you can [00:14:20] prepare someone in terms of what they will hear if they've had [00:14:25] a, um, a safe upbringing because I just don't think you can prepare for [00:14:30] that. But I would, I would just say to younger Rachel, I'd say get supervision right now. Like [00:14:35] start it now for a seeing a therapist because, um, [00:14:40] because I didn't end up finding someone that I liked at the time and didn't see someone regularly.[00:14:45]

[00:14:45] Yeah, it

[00:14:45] Rachel Knight: meant I just kept holding onto those stories and they're still in my head now, so yeah, I [00:14:50] haven't properly let them go and that they just stay with you. Um, and that they do impact how you, [00:14:55] how you're as a person. So yeah, that's, that would be my very practical advice and don't do so many [00:15:00] in a row.

[00:15:00] Rachel Knight: 'cause I went from a kind of corporate world where you could [00:15:05] do five interviews in a day 'cause it, it kind of really hurt your head, but it didn't hurt your heart. [00:15:10] But going into this kind of work, you can't, you just can't rush it. [00:15:15] Yeah,

[00:15:15] yeah.

[00:15:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. Like, so there's, there's a whole [00:15:20] generation of young, uh, you know, eager to learn [00:15:25] designers and they, they're struggling.

[00:15:26] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. To get what would be called a, like a corporate, if you want [00:15:30] like a job like getting into an internship or whatever it is. And they're looking for any [00:15:35] opportunities. Yeah. But as they're, as a result, when they're so desperate to get a break, [00:15:40] there's potentially there risk that they're happy to do things where they're unprepared for.[00:15:45]

[00:15:46] Gerry Scullion: So what do we need to do as a, as a craft, as as an industry, [00:15:50] as a faculty, if you want to support that next generation of [00:15:55] designers? It's, it, you know, as we mentioned, it is expensive to go to therapy. There's other, [00:16:00] um. Services out there online. One in particular I wanna call out is called Better Help. [00:16:05] I tried that and they were absolutely awful.

[00:16:07] Gerry Scullion: Turns out they're not, they're not actually licensed. Many [00:16:10] of them, they're just Oh,

[00:16:10] okay. They're

[00:16:11] Gerry Scullion: just not good. I think they're just therapists who've got certificates and [00:16:15] stuff. I remember explaining, I had a session with one of them and they were like, this is just an amazing [00:16:20] story and I. I'm sorry. What?

[00:16:22] Gerry Scullion: They go, yeah. Your whole childhood is just, it's so [00:16:25] chaotic. And I was like, sorry, what? I was like, I'd never, and [00:16:30] I, that's when I started like, so better help wanna call it if I, not that they're not the, [00:16:35] the option here. A cheaper online version of it. Yeah. But if you had to [00:16:40] say to maybe educators in the design world who are, who are helping [00:16:45] form these designers through academia.

[00:16:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:16:50] Have you heard of any, uh, academic institutions that are really thinking like this? [00:16:55] Because that's a huge area, like, you know Yeah. Most designers

[00:16:59] [00:17:00] Yeah. That

[00:17:00] Gerry Scullion: I'm learning about now and I'm seeing they want to do good. They wanna work in the social [00:17:05] space, they wanna work in governments, they wanna research with people out there.

[00:17:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, [00:17:10] in the context of their homes in some instances. So there's lots of [00:17:15] situations that can be quite. Difficult to navigate. Oh, yeah. Socially and safety as well. [00:17:20] Yeah. Um,

[00:17:21] Rachel Knight: I think there are definitely, um, places [00:17:25] doing it well. I think whether or not there's many places doing it well in design, like I [00:17:30] feel like, I feel like for a long time designers have [00:17:35] been trying to.

[00:17:36] Rachel Knight: Advocate for their own value. And I'd really advise [00:17:40] designers and people learning about design to learn from outside the design discipline. Mm-hmm. Because [00:17:45] there's people who've been doing this work for years and years and years, and we can just, you know, learn from them. [00:17:50] Um, so there is an element of, uh, design education incorporating those skills [00:17:55] and that experience into what they're doing.

[00:17:56] Rachel Knight: But I also think there's a piece of, if you're interested in this [00:18:00] space, go learn from the experts who've been doing it for a very long time as well. I. [00:18:05]

[00:18:05] Gerry Scullion: There's definitely, like, there's Rachel Deus, who I mentioned there before [00:18:10] opened, like when I went through all of this stuff like 10 years ago. [00:18:15] Um, from where we're at then to where we're at now.

[00:18:17] Gerry Scullion: I think the industry is much more aware and they're happy to [00:18:20] talk about these things. Yeah. Um, Rachel. Is writing a book on trauma [00:18:25] informed design on MIT at the moment, or with MIT should I say, and really opened [00:18:30] my mind to it. So there's people out there as well that really speak about the [00:18:35] importance of, of self-care, like, um, so maybe we can, myself and yourself could [00:18:40] think of a few others that we can put links to in, in the, the show notes for people to follow and [00:18:45] read about and so forth.

[00:18:47] Gerry Scullion: So it be nice to have resources.[00:18:50]

[00:18:52] Gerry Scullion: In the post that you mentioned there, um, [00:18:55] there's a few other aspects about defining heavy topics. Okay. [00:19:00] Now, uh, how do we, like if we, if we, me and you, you know, do [00:19:05] a mural board and say we list that all the heavy topics that we think are there. Yeah. That's only our own perspective on [00:19:10] what a heavy topic is.

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: Does someone self-identify what [00:19:15] a heavy topic is? Mm-hmm. In your experience?

[00:19:17] Rachel Knight: Yeah. That's such a good point. And you're so right. It is [00:19:20] subjective. Like people who work on the front lines hear this kind of stuff all the time. [00:19:25] Um, so mm-hmm. What is heavy to them would be quite different. Yeah. I think it comes down to, [00:19:30] uh, what you notice, um, [00:19:35] gives you a, a reaction.

[00:19:36] Rachel Knight: You know, it's when you start to feel your heartbeat. Change. [00:19:40] Mm-hmm. And that's when your stomach goes tight. It's when, you know, we use the word triggering [00:19:45] probably too much these days, but when it does trigger a response in you, um, whether [00:19:50] that's shock or, um, disgust or heartbreak, whatever that is, [00:19:55] I think that is heavy.

[00:19:56] Rachel Knight: Um, and that needs a bit of [00:20:00] wraparound support around it.

[00:20:01] Yeah.

[00:20:02] Rachel Knight: And sometimes that will surprise you what that topic is. [00:20:05]

[00:20:05] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. There's, yeah. I mean, like. I've got an instance in this where I was [00:20:10] researching for a bank years ago, yeah, maybe about six or seven years ago, and it was [00:20:15] money management. You know, money is important in the world, [00:20:20] but I naively entered a conversation

[00:20:23] Oh

[00:20:23] Rachel Knight: yeah.

[00:20:24] Gerry Scullion: With [00:20:25] a woman who started to cry when we talking about [00:20:30] access to funds and when you have that realization where you just kind of go, [00:20:35] it's like this little, slowly but surely, everything goes into slow motion. Like, oh no. [00:20:40] Mm. I said, I've, I've hit an absolute sore point. Yeah. Turns out there [00:20:45] was domestic issues there and there was control and manipulation and there.[00:20:50]

[00:20:53] Gerry Scullion: It was the one research [00:20:55] session that the CIO decided to sit in in the bank. And yeah, in my [00:21:00] mind I was like, well, this is real. Mm-hmm. I said, this is, it's not a transaction. This is what we're talking [00:21:05] about here. Yeah. Um, so even something that we can. Think of like, oh, I'm working [00:21:10] in the financial sector.

[00:21:11] Rachel Knight: Oh yeah, I know. A huge area. I think that's why I called it [00:21:15] out. I think it's so easy to make the assumption that, you know, just because you've defined your [00:21:20] research scope Yeah. That there won't be things outside of that. Um, so I think you're better off if [00:21:25] you're doing any form of research with people about their lives.

[00:21:29] Rachel Knight: I just think you're better too. [00:21:30] Plan for what will that support look like for you and for them. And if you [00:21:35] don't need it, great. But if you do, you've already planned it, you're ready. Yeah.

[00:21:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:21:40] I mean, you mentioned there that a lot of the stuff that you've learned, and this is [00:21:45] across the board folks, nearly everyone that I work with and have worked with exactly [00:21:50] the same as Rachel, they've learned on the job, they've learned through failures, micro [00:21:55] failures, all of those different pieces.

[00:21:58] Gerry Scullion: How do you, um. [00:22:00] How do you kind of avoid. Those repeated [00:22:05] mistakes when you're finding them, because when, when you're researching, it's easy to [00:22:10] kind of navigate, but sometimes there's this kind of area where you kinda go, well, actually there's a probably a rich [00:22:15] train of of information and I'd, I'm curious about that.

[00:22:19] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. [00:22:20] Well what are the signs that you look for when you're researching to say, well, actually is, is it, [00:22:25] how would you approach that? Inner curiosity versus balancing? [00:22:30] I might be going into a gray area in terms of, in that, in that area. 'cause when you're [00:22:35] researching, you're like, actually just, I'd love to understand that one a little bit more.

[00:22:39] Gerry Scullion: Like, you know. [00:22:40]

[00:22:41] Rachel Knight: Yeah, I know I have. I think this is where a lot of it [00:22:45] has really challenged what I was taught about research. Yeah. So if I [00:22:50] think of a recent example where. Uh, a mother was telling me about her experiences [00:22:55] of support services. Um, it was very clear that, and she [00:23:00] described this herself, that, um, trust is a challenge for her and there's very, very good reasons [00:23:05] for that.

[00:23:06] Rachel Knight: Um, and so immediately for me, I [00:23:10] kind of realized I need to be very careful about my curiosity [00:23:15] because she needs to be in control. In this interview, I said that up front, you know, she doesn't have [00:23:20] to answer any questions. But there is an inherent power, power dynamic if you are giving [00:23:25] a gift or, or money or anything to acknowledge their time.

[00:23:27] Rachel Knight: Yeah. Um, when there's [00:23:30] confidentiality, you know, anything like that where there's power dynamic, um, I immediately [00:23:35] went, no, actually this could be a short interview and I might not dive into [00:23:40] particularly areas because I know that she'll be thinking in the back of her head that there are risks [00:23:45] around disclosing any of that information.

[00:23:47] Okay. Um,

[00:23:47] Rachel Knight: so I think so much of it is just. [00:23:50] Yes. Listening to what people are saying, but listening to how they're saying [00:23:55] it and how comfortable they sound, um, and asking yourself is the [00:24:00] most important thing here, getting a juicy quote, or is it actually keeping that person in their family safe? [00:24:05]

[00:24:06] Gerry Scullion: Extractive, yeah.

[00:24:08] Gerry Scullion: And, and it's very [00:24:10] easy and it, that's why I think it's so important to select the right researcher. Yeah. [00:24:15] If you look at someone who's relatively new to it, um, how they, [00:24:20] how they determine their own self-worth, trying to get this, uh, [00:24:25] articulated correctly is through rich quotes and rich [00:24:30] reflection points that can really, in their world, [00:24:35] transform.

[00:24:36] Gerry Scullion: Uh, you know, and, and increase the chances of action [00:24:40] based stuff within the project. Yeah. Too often, like, [00:24:45] we may go too far. Yeah. In my, my perspective, um, [00:24:50] I mean, I'd love to see, I've never done it. I'd love to do a series of research for a cli a client. [00:24:55] Someday it's gonna go, do you know what? I started asking questions and I just realized it was just not, [00:25:00] uh.

[00:25:00] Gerry Scullion: This wasn't appropriate to ask some of these questions. Yeah. They go what?

[00:25:04] Yeah. [00:25:05]

[00:25:05] Gerry Scullion: They, they would not be able to, most clients I think would really struggle with that.

[00:25:09] Mm. [00:25:10]

[00:25:10] Gerry Scullion: So, um, talk to me about where and [00:25:15] how you're learning. Um, you mentioned there about learning on the job, [00:25:20] um, and you seem like the sort of person who's.

[00:25:23] Gerry Scullion: Doing a lot of internal reflection [00:25:25] and, um, continuous learning and reading and stuff. Yeah. [00:25:30] Where do you find, um, areas, first of [00:25:35] all, how do you find areas within your own skillset that you need to improve on? Second of [00:25:40] all, how do you select the right. Educational practice. [00:25:45]

[00:25:45] Rachel Knight: Fire. Good Questions. Um, in, [00:25:50] okay, so the first one, how do you find areas that you need to focus on?

[00:25:53] Rachel Knight: I,

[00:25:54] Gerry Scullion: as a [00:25:55] researcher?

[00:25:55] Rachel Knight: Yeah. As a researcher, I think the, the best way for me to figure that out is [00:26:00] working with other people, because that's when you see that they have skills or knowledge, [00:26:05] expertise that you don't have and that you have so much you can learn from them.

[00:26:08] Yeah. So

[00:26:09] Rachel Knight: that's my favorite [00:26:10] way to figure that out.

[00:26:11] Rachel Knight: Um, and that's, yeah, that's why I love working with [00:26:15] other people like my mate Ka Davis, who, um, has all this expertise within [00:26:20] Ta Maori, the Maori world. Um, working with people like that, it just constantly challenges you. [00:26:25] You have to rethink everything you do. Um, yeah. So I think [00:26:30] that's a really, really wonderful way to figure out where you can stretch yourself or where you can grow.

[00:26:34] Rachel Knight: Mm-hmm. [00:26:35] In terms of the formal education stuff, ah, I'm not so good at that. Um, [00:26:40] I actually, I mean, speaking of self care, I'm not someone who. Actually [00:26:45] listens much to podcasts or reads, um, books, um, [00:26:50] about work. And that came very much from needing to switch off from work.

[00:26:54] [00:26:55] Yeah,

[00:26:55] Rachel Knight: when I started working on these really intense, intense projects, um, I think I drew [00:27:00] a line that I need to read, uh, escapism, I need to read fantasy or [00:27:05] something like that, that takes me completely out of my work.

[00:27:08] Rachel Knight: Um. So when I wanna [00:27:10] learn, really for me it is learning from people. That's what I find works for me [00:27:15] best, but other people learn in lots of different ways.

[00:27:17] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I think, you know, that, that works for [00:27:20] you and you've identified it. Yeah. Um, I'm keen to understand more around the [00:27:25] reflection pieces though, like, um.

[00:27:29] Gerry Scullion: Are there any other, [00:27:30] you mentioned there maybe you see a therapist as well, like, you know, to, to maintain, you know, both mental [00:27:35] health and um, practical, uh, capacity when you're working [00:27:40] in these areas. Um, is there any reflective practices that you use in terms [00:27:45] of. What's happening in the industry. So you can see, um, [00:27:50] maybe at the moment there's, you know, there's a huge homelessness, uh, problem [00:27:55] across the world.

[00:27:56] Gerry Scullion: So when you're working in those spaces, is there something [00:28:00] out there, is there anything out there that you can point at and say, well actually there's an area that I need to be able to navigate, [00:28:05] um, potentially harmful situations physically? [00:28:10] Uh, I know I've spoken to researchers. They said I've been in situations where I've had to, you know, get out very quickly.[00:28:15]

[00:28:15] Gerry Scullion: Is that something that's in your consciousness when you're researching in person, [00:28:20] um, how you actually navigate that world,

[00:28:23] Rachel Knight: like physical safety and that [00:28:25] physical, physical

[00:28:25] Gerry Scullion: safety?

[00:28:27] Rachel Knight: Um,

[00:28:27] Gerry Scullion: how do you, how do you approach those topics? [00:28:30] Because Yeah, I've had people at the moment that went out and they, they were, uh, [00:28:35] knocking on doors, which was like, first of all, that's a recipe for disaster.

[00:28:38] Yes.

[00:28:38] Gerry Scullion: Um, and there was [00:28:40] a sword, there was a sword on, on one of the couches. Wow. Yeah.

[00:28:43] And I'm

[00:28:43] Gerry Scullion: like, so what happened? And [00:28:45] this is, I left, left very quickly. Yeah.[00:28:50]

[00:28:54] Gerry Scullion: Very, [00:28:55] you know, kind of, uh, gorilla style for start. But

[00:28:58] Rachel Knight: yeah, that's pretty extreme, [00:29:00] I would say. Pretty extreme,

[00:29:01] Gerry Scullion: you know? Um, so how do you, like, is [00:29:05] that something that's ever in your consciousness? People can, because it seems that whenever [00:29:10] we're researching that it could be in a, you know, a [00:29:15] room or it could be in a, in a work setting.

[00:29:17] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You could trigger [00:29:20] these areas and Yeah, totally. Some, something could, could happen.

[00:29:24] Rachel Knight: Yeah. [00:29:25] So I've definitely been in, uh, situations in the past where we have been [00:29:30] interviewing in homes. Um, there were a whole lot of, uh, processes around [00:29:35] that though, in terms of, um, being introduced by a trusted person, often a social worker.

[00:29:39] Rachel Knight: [00:29:40] Okay. And making sure we were going in as peers. Um, never being on your own, having someone [00:29:45] call you before and after the interview. So there were a lot. Around that. [00:29:50] But I think these days so much of my work is online [00:29:55] and, um, because I'm freelancing now, uh, if [00:30:00] a client asks me about doing a project like this,

[00:30:03] I can

[00:30:03] Rachel Knight: not only say, well, I'd need [00:30:05] all of these things in place to make sure that I'm safe.

[00:30:07] Rachel Knight: I can also have the conversation around. [00:30:10] Is that the best approach? Does that person want me to come into their home or would they actually [00:30:15] prefer we have a phone conversation? Because then it's a lot more confidential. Um, they can stop at any point. [00:30:20] They don't have a complete stranger coming in. So I think there's a lot biggest kind of spectrum [00:30:25] around the approaches, what's best for both people.

[00:30:28] Rachel Knight: Um, so that's usually the [00:30:30] conversation. I'll start with I think,

[00:30:31] Gerry Scullion: uh, as a freelancer, um, uh, [00:30:35] and you're being brought into projects. Is there ever a case where they're expecting [00:30:40] you to go out on your own to do the research

[00:30:42] Rachel Knight: in, into homes?

[00:30:44] Gerry Scullion: No. Just [00:30:45] generally go out and do the research, uh, on your own?

[00:30:48] Rachel Knight: Yeah. I mean, so I've, [00:30:50] I've been, I've been doing these, um, interviews with families on my own, but they've been phone [00:30:55] calls mostly.

[00:30:55] Rachel Knight: Okay. A few video calls, um. So from a [00:31:00] physical safety point of view, that is a lot simpler to deal with. Yeah.

[00:31:03] Hundred percent.

[00:31:03] Rachel Knight: I've not been asked to [00:31:05] go into homes or to go out into the community to do, um, research on my own [00:31:10] yet. Um, I'll kind of cross that bridge if I get to it. Uh, but that, yeah, [00:31:15] there's a whole lot of things you need to put around that to make sure Yeah.

[00:31:18] Rachel Knight: Are safe in that.

[00:31:19] Gerry Scullion: [00:31:20] Because I, I see like the design research industry in particular, lots of people being laid off, [00:31:25] but the requirement is still there to do the research. So as a result, the gig [00:31:30] economy is only gonna grow more. Yeah. Yeah. And as a result, the standards could [00:31:35] drop. And that's my concern, that if pe more and more people do, um, [00:31:40] design research in a freelance capacity, yeah.

[00:31:43] Gerry Scullion: They, the client, the [00:31:45] employer, whatever you wanna call them, they could really shed that responsibility in saying it's on your own. And, [00:31:50] and as a result, you're at the discretion. There is a power dynamic. They're paying you.

[00:31:53] Yeah, sure. Um,

[00:31:54] Gerry Scullion: you need to [00:31:55] do the job. I think we need to stand firm on some of those things.

[00:31:58] Gerry Scullion: Like if you're being asked to go [00:32:00] out, um, you need to be shadowed. Yeah. Um, by another person at least. [00:32:05] Um, I've never, I'm white, I'm a man, [00:32:10] I'm six foot two. I'm not, you know, easily kind of [00:32:15] taken hold of. Yeah. I think in those situations, balancing, [00:32:20] um, the situation with risk is. More often [00:32:25] than not, not considered enough.

[00:32:26] Gerry Scullion: Mm. Um, in those situations. Yeah. [00:32:30] Have you, um, are you okay to talk more around some of the other elements that are in, in [00:32:35] that carousel? Like Yeah, sure. Around, around breathing room, because there was a piece that I men remember talking [00:32:40] about limiting your research to two sessions a day. [00:32:45] Yeah. And I, my personally, I come from, um, banking and [00:32:50] finance and start.

[00:32:50] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. So I was

[00:32:51] Rachel Knight: like, yeah, let's do six a day efficiently. [00:32:55] Yes.

[00:32:55] Gerry Scullion: As a flex.

[00:32:57] Rachel Knight: Yeah.

[00:32:58] Gerry Scullion: Where did that realization come from, from you? [00:33:00] That too is probably. Enough

[00:33:02] Rachel Knight: that one. So that one has a bit of a story [00:33:05] behind it. Um, so I think I might have mentioned, I came from a, I guess a more [00:33:10] kind of corporate design agency world.

[00:33:12] Rachel Knight: So that was where we, yeah, we'd go on road trips and, [00:33:15] you know, do five interviews a day and you'd be exhausted. But it was all kind of head exhaustion. [00:33:20] Um, I then kind of tried to apply that same logic in [00:33:25] the social impact sector and that was when I was, uh, working on the homelessness [00:33:30] project with Auckland Council.

[00:33:32] Rachel Knight: Um, and there is [00:33:35] one story in particular, and I won't go into, into much detail, but, [00:33:40] um,

[00:33:40] yeah,

[00:33:40] Rachel Knight: just to demonstrate the point, so. A mother had [00:33:45] come into our studio to share her, uh, life experiences with me. [00:33:50] Um, and essentially she was telling me about they. [00:33:55] How unstable her, uh, son's kind of early childhood [00:34:00] had been that moved around multiple places and couch surfed and didn't have any kind of [00:34:05] stable home.

[00:34:06] Rachel Knight: Um, and she told me how when [00:34:10] he got older, uh, he essentially passed away from a drug [00:34:15] overdose and, um, she blamed herself for that.[00:34:20]

[00:34:22] Rachel Knight: So when you, when you hear stories like [00:34:25] that and you have booked an interview, um, [00:34:30] for the next hour, you know mm-hmm. You have half an hour between them. Your [00:34:35] only option, I think, is to push that emotion down [00:34:40] and to go numb. Yeah. Um, just to cope with going from. [00:34:45] Uh, hearing that story and being human in that moment with that person, [00:34:50] uh, and then going straight into another conversation with someone about their experiences.[00:34:55]

[00:34:55] Rachel Knight: So, um, I think that story in particular, and that woman in particular, [00:35:00] um, obviously you can hear, you know, it still weighs on me pretty heavily. [00:35:05] I can still remember her story in detail and, um. [00:35:10] That's a real reminder for me that you can't cram these things [00:35:15] in. You have to create space because if you don't process them [00:35:20] and let them go as you go, uh, they'll stay with you and it's not a [00:35:25] good thing they stay with you.

[00:35:26] Rachel Knight: So yeah, that one, that one in particular,

[00:35:29] Gerry Scullion: [00:35:30] it's, it's interesting. Are you okay to keep, keep talking about more around these topics? Yeah. You're okay. [00:35:35] Um. Someone said to me years ago, and I want to get your thoughts on it, like, I'm a [00:35:40] a highly sensitive person, hsb. Okay. So, uh, I take [00:35:45] things and I wear them, um, in terms of what, what people say to me.

[00:35:49] Gerry Scullion: And yeah, I [00:35:50] carry them with me even though like I might play off and that, oh yeah, that doesn't bother me. It does bother me. [00:35:55] Like, you know, when someone says those things, um, someone said to me years [00:36:00] ago, maybe HSPs. Aren't the right people to do research. [00:36:05] Um, and I'm like, well, what's the alternative? You get sociopaths.[00:36:10]

[00:36:10] Gerry Scullion: And they're like, well, well what do you mean? I go, so people who don't really empathize and [00:36:15] don't really carry those pieces across, do you think there's a certain [00:36:20] type. Person that [00:36:25] gravitates to research. And are they, is that a valid point that [00:36:30] someone made to me years ago about like, maybe you shouldn't do research.

[00:36:34] Gerry Scullion: And I was like, [00:36:35] and I'm like. I, it still lingers that question, and it was [00:36:40] in Australia, and I'm like, I, I actually, it triggered something really, you know, visceral. I [00:36:45] was just like,

[00:36:45] Rachel Knight: yeah,

[00:36:46] Gerry Scullion: what do you just say that I shouldn't do research? Like, you know, I was like, [00:36:50] dare you. I was like, how dare. Um, but it [00:36:55] really got me thinking like, you know, there like is there something in that?[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Yeah.

[00:37:01] Rachel Knight: Yeah. I have thought that's your take

[00:37:02] Gerry Scullion: on it.

[00:37:03] Rachel Knight: I have thoughts on that. So, [00:37:05] so there's two parts. So the first one was, do you think a particular type of person is drawn to [00:37:10] research? I think absolutely. You have to be interested in humans.

[00:37:13] Yeah, absolutely. You

[00:37:14] Rachel Knight: know, if [00:37:15] you're not curious about humans and their experiences, you'll not enjoy research [00:37:20] because that is your job.

[00:37:21] Rachel Knight: It is to be a professional learner about people and their [00:37:25] lives. Um, so yes.[00:37:30]

[00:37:31] Rachel Knight: You are the right person to do the job if you have, you know, a high [00:37:35] level of empathy. Yeah, see, I, I think [00:37:40] there's a couple of bits there because. If you don't get any great quotes, if they say [00:37:45] at the end of that conversation, I'm sorry, I, I don't want you to use that interview, that [00:37:50] it's irrelevant. They need to be able to walk out of the room feeling like they were heard and they were safe.[00:37:55]

[00:37:55] Rachel Knight: Um, yeah, I think that's your number one. So

[00:37:58] percent

[00:37:59] Rachel Knight: you [00:38:00] don't want people to be doing this work who aren't making those people feel heard and okay [00:38:05] in the moment. I.[00:38:10]

[00:38:10] Rachel Knight: Highly sensitive people can look after themselves. Well, that's a [00:38:15] different question, I think.

[00:38:16] Absolutely.

[00:38:17] Rachel Knight: Yeah. You need to be able to, to look after yourself [00:38:20] and cope. And I think the point where you can't either in a project or in your career, that's when, yeah, [00:38:25] stepping away might be the right thing for you.

[00:38:26] Rachel Knight: But I don't think it's, um,

[00:38:29] Gerry Scullion: you can categorize [00:38:30] people.

[00:38:30] Rachel Knight: Yeah. No, I don't think it's that. Yeah. It's about is it still working for the person you're interviewing and [00:38:35] for yourself? I think at

[00:38:37] Gerry Scullion: that point when someone said that to me that it [00:38:40] was a case that, that I was starting probably to unravel on that project.

[00:38:44] Gerry Scullion: I was like saying [00:38:45] there was lots of stuff going on. My first child was, was on its way, and I [00:38:50] was working in a space where very young. Children were being [00:38:55] abused. Yeah. Um, there was definitely days where I'm like, I just can't function. Like [00:39:00] I, I, this is just too much for me, my, my, my brain. Um, so [00:39:05] maybe there's something in it, maybe there's not, but I think it's contextual, the person and, uh, the topic as well, if you're [00:39:10] able to do it.

[00:39:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. One of the pieces that you mentioned, and I just wanna go back to it a little bit more, [00:39:15] um. Is this whole kind of mirroring scenario of [00:39:20] our own past, our own childhoods and our own kind of adolescence and [00:39:25] stuff. When you're researching in those spaces, sometimes it can become quite triggering [00:39:30] and you might know what that past trauma is without, [00:39:35] um, professional assistance.

[00:39:38] Gerry Scullion: So you might kinda go, yeah, okay, I've [00:39:40] got some lived experience in that. And lived experience is kind of, it's powerful. Yeah, [00:39:45] but at certain times that power shifts into a damaging power. [00:39:50] Oh yeah. Um, so like how do we [00:39:55] ensure that we're selecting the right person with lived experience and that [00:40:00] they're being supported in the correct way?

[00:40:03] Gerry Scullion: Um. [00:40:05] So we're not just hiring for that lived experience and then they're reliving that trauma.

[00:40:09] Rachel Knight: Yeah. [00:40:10] Yeah. I think so much. I think so much of it is, um. [00:40:15] I think it's the consent and the boundaries around that lived experience, right? It's like, yes, I have [00:40:20] that lived experience, but you have to consent to, um, using that or leaning into that [00:40:25] in your work.

[00:40:25] Rachel Knight: And I think that's an ongoing thing. Um, yeah, you might say, yes, one day [00:40:30] I can cope with that and that's okay. And then the next day you might say, actually I can't today. I need to be [00:40:35] able to step away because this is impacting me too much. Um, but I do think there's [00:40:40] sometimes seems to be a bit of an assumption that.

[00:40:42] Rachel Knight: If you have lived experience, you're the best person [00:40:45] to be leading that work or doing those interviews. And I think sometimes [00:40:50] it can be the opposite because you can't, um, you can't step away from it. You [00:40:55] have a really strong bias from your own experience. Um, it brings up really hard [00:41:00] things. It brings up a reaction.

[00:41:03] Rachel Knight: And you can't stay grounded or you can't [00:41:05] treat that other person as the expert. So I don't think it's black and white. Again, I think it comes down to the person [00:41:10] and the project and, and the moment in the context.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:14] Gerry Scullion: Um, [00:41:15] can I talk to you a little bit more around refilling the cup? Yeah. Refilling the [00:41:20] cup because um,

[00:41:21] Rachel Knight: that's a nice one.

[00:41:22] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. No, I think it's, it's a [00:41:25] potentially a lighter, um, part of the conversation. So. How do you [00:41:30] identify, um, with your cup being full or empty? Like what, [00:41:35] what are, what are the physical and mental identifiers that you look for? [00:41:40]

[00:41:40] Rachel Knight: Um, really practically speaking, I, I just know [00:41:45] it's, if I've spent time outside.

[00:41:46] Rachel Knight: Lucky it gave be that straightforward for [00:41:50] me. Um. So, for example, getting out on my, my bike, um, [00:41:55] yeah. Or getting into the garden are like, they're non-negotiables. I have to do it. [00:42:00] Yeah. Because I notice the difference in my mood and my patience is [00:42:05] completely different if you're not getting that adrenaline, adrenaline outta your system.

[00:42:09] Rachel Knight: [00:42:10] Um, so those are super, super important for me. And I, I do that every day [00:42:15] and then prioritize it more. So if I'm doing these kinds of projects. Um, so yeah, [00:42:20] that's, I mean, you can look for how you're feeling as a person, but you can also just go, I need [00:42:25] to do these things and I will just do them and commit.

[00:42:27] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And you're in Wellington as well. Yeah. So [00:42:30] it's, it's an awful place to, to be out and about, like, you know, it's just, [00:42:35] you know, the air is only joking. It's one of the most special places on. [00:42:40] It's beautiful.[00:42:45]

[00:42:46] Gerry Scullion: The cup being needing to be refilled. [00:42:50] Is there instances where, because I, I, I actually speaking to a few people at the moment who [00:42:55] are, I'm probably in that camp as well where I'm getting close to burnout. Um, [00:43:00] how do you, has that something you has happened to you? I'd love to know, like, [00:43:05] and what have you done to try.

[00:43:07] Gerry Scullion: You know, refill the cup and, and take [00:43:10] care. Like, is there anything, any systems that you have in place to make sure that, [00:43:15] um, you're preempting the burnout, you're preempting, uh, that you're close [00:43:20] to those, um, mental health, uh, red flags [00:43:25] if you want. Yeah. When you're researching, because we become much more effective, I, I [00:43:30] believe, as human beings, when your is there, you know.

[00:43:34] Rachel Knight: Yeah. [00:43:35] Yeah, totally. I don't know about formal systems. I mean, I, I have a human [00:43:40] being, my husband, who is extremely helpful at measuring

[00:43:44] [00:43:45] Yeah. Kind

[00:43:45] Rachel Knight: of how I'm doing and how full my cup is or isn't.

[00:43:48] Yeah. Go. Um,

[00:43:49] Rachel Knight: so I think he [00:43:50] is probably my human system for checking in on how I'm going. Yeah. And whether or not [00:43:55] I need to do some things to refill that cup has a big part of that for sure.

[00:43:59] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Rachel Knight: Um, but no,

[00:44:01] Gerry Scullion: there was something years ago, like, yeah. I think that the, the other people [00:44:05] in your life is a really solid answer to that. Yeah. Um, they [00:44:10] usually see things that you don't see, or like, maybe you should go for a walk. Why? Because you're being really [00:44:15] difficult. Yeah. And that's one that when my wife says it to me, I'm just like.[00:44:20]

[00:44:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. So hopefully

[00:44:23] Gerry Scullion: so, yeah, it's been a, [00:44:25] been a tough day. Um, but I remember Hector Garcia, who [00:44:30] was on the podcast a couple of years ago, and he wrote, uh, a couple of books, an Ikigai, [00:44:35] um, and, um, he's a fantastic thinker. [00:44:40] He spoke about this, uh, this word that is eluding me at the moment [00:44:45] in Japanese culture about these, uh, a number of [00:44:50] adventures that you scheduled throughout the year.

[00:44:52] Gerry Scullion: Cool. Yeah. To help maintain the cup. Yeah. [00:44:55] And I was like, oh, I love that. And he says, yes, but it's with intent. It's not just like, yeah, [00:45:00] we, we, we struggled, uh, we stumbled upon this thing this day. It's like, you know, that [00:45:05] there's these pieces that are scheduled throughout the year. That's already in the calendar.[00:45:10]

[00:45:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You've planned the year from the get go and you know that in March climbing this [00:45:15] or in uh, June, you're gonna be doing this and it's only two or three days. [00:45:20] Um, I thought that was a really nice way of helping maintain the, [00:45:25] the cup being a little bit more full and that empty. That's

[00:45:28] awesome. Yeah.

[00:45:29] Gerry Scullion: Probably [00:45:30] resonates more when you're in New Zealand. You kind go, go bungee jumping there.[00:45:35]

[00:45:38] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And obviously,

[00:45:39] Rachel Knight: but I mean [00:45:40] the, I think you're right in terms of when you talk about burnout, I think, um, [00:45:45] many New Zealanders have had a bad habit, including myself, where you kind of just [00:45:50] push yourself through the winter and wait for this big long summer break. Um, whereas I think now [00:45:55] we have Maki, the Maori New Year in the.[00:46:00]

[00:46:02] Rachel Knight: Univers, you know, those reminders to [00:46:05] take a moment and to celebrate what's been and look back and look forward, um, and taking [00:46:10] that time to look after yourself in the cold, dark months. I think even those things can help [00:46:15] you to plan those, get that

[00:46:16] Gerry Scullion: around Solstice. Is that around June 21? Yeah, just last week [00:46:20] goes for

[00:46:20] Rachel Knight: a long time, but we have the anniversary or the, the weekends.

[00:46:24] Gerry Scullion: We [00:46:25] call it Solstice and it comes from Drs and Pagans. Yeah. In, in Ireland. Like, [00:46:30] you know, so I celebrate it too as well, which is fantastic. Rachel, [00:46:35] there's so much stuff that we could unpack more, and I I, I'd like to invite you back onto [00:46:40] the past whenever you, whenever you want, onto the podcast. Would I say, um, [00:46:45] if people wanna follow you and connect with you and maybe speak about [00:46:50] opportunities to work, what's the the best way for people to get in touch with you?

[00:46:54] Rachel Knight: [00:46:55] Yeah, definitely. LinkedIn is always a great way these days. Yeah. Um, or just [00:47:00] find my email on LinkedIn. I always love to chat with good people doing good work. So

[00:47:04] Gerry Scullion: maybe [00:47:05] we could put your email in the show notes. Would that be Yeah, that'd be awesome. I think we can do that as well. Um, [00:47:10] it's fantastic to, to speak with someone, one who's freelance.[00:47:15]

[00:47:15] Gerry Scullion: I love the fact that you're freelance and that gives us, um, a certain [00:47:20] amount of autonomy to select the projects. Um, [00:47:25] what kind of projects? Um, float. Your boat? [00:47:30]

[00:47:31] Rachel Knight: Oh yeah. Anything in the social impact or environmental space? [00:47:35] I know that's very broad. Um, nice

[00:47:37] Gerry Scullion: and broad. Yeah.

[00:47:38] Rachel Knight: Nice and broad. No. What [00:47:40] I've kind of learned over the years, so I have a couple of friends who have founded [00:47:45] charities.

[00:47:45] Rachel Knight: Um, the kinds of people who have a vision have [00:47:50] this one thing that they're passionate about, and. I've learned [00:47:55] that I don't have that one thing, that one topic, but what I [00:48:00] love is working with people who are already doing the hard work and just making [00:48:05] it a little bit easier for them. So just giving their work a bit more clarity or a little bit of a boost.[00:48:10]

[00:48:10] Rachel Knight: Um, I don't have the resilience to do the front of front of house on [00:48:15] frontline work. I've learnt that. I really, really love just supporting those people who [00:48:20] are doing the hard, the hard work and yeah, making nice it easier.

[00:48:24] Gerry Scullion: [00:48:25] Nice. Rachel, listen, look, I wrap up every podcast that I do by thanking people [00:48:30] for their time, their energy, and their vulnerability.

[00:48:32] Gerry Scullion: 'cause we're speaking about topics here that, um. [00:48:35] It's they matter. Um, so thank you for giving me your time and your evening as well because [00:48:40] I know I'm cutting into your, um, very, very important New Zealand, uh, [00:48:45] TV time. Um,

[00:48:47] we don't have a tv.

[00:48:48] Gerry Scullion: You don't have a tv. I don't have a [00:48:50] tv. Um, but I know I'm cutting into your evening.

[00:48:52] Gerry Scullion: Um, so I really appreciate you giving me [00:48:55] that opportunity to spend some time with you. Thank you much. I'll put a link to everything that you're doing. Put a link to that. [00:49:00] Post as well. So you can look at it and download the PDF and I'd encourage you as [00:49:05] the listeners to connect with Rachel, but also to share that [00:49:10] PDF and share that post out to the people in your team to start having conversations around these things.

[00:49:14] Gerry Scullion: [00:49:15] This is what we're all about here, and this is HCD. Um, so if you've got any questions pointing towards Rachel, [00:49:20] thanks so much for your time.

[00:49:21] Rachel Knight: Thanks so much, Sherry. It was lovely to [00:49:25] [00:49:30] chat.

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