[00:00:00] In your experience, well, what did it look like when the prison opens the door and say, Besta look mate, and they open the door. What, what was that experience like for people? Yeah, we heard people saying it was a scary experience. You know, in those first couple of weeks it's very overwhelming. Anything from navigating multiple appointments, people's schedules became jam-packed with trying to get from one place to another because of compliance is quite strict and hard to follow.

[00:00:28] I guess when thinking about things like Centrelink, which is the Australian version of social payments. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So when they're looking for social payments, they might not have an ID to get an id. They need an address and you know, maybe they haven't got a fixed permanent address. So there's all these kind of things that people are thinking about and the ability to dream was what the co-design participants sort of.

[00:00:51] Came up with this, something that was sort of key for them.

[00:00:58] Hello and welcome to Bringing Design [00:01:00] Closer on. This is H C D. My name is Jerry s Scalian. I'm the founder of This is h cd. I'm a designer, educator, design coach, and podcaster, obviously based in the wonderful city of Dublin, Ireland. Now, our goal here is to conversations that inspire and help move the dial forward for organizations to become more human-centered in their approach to solving complex business and societal problems.

[00:01:21] In this conversation, I caught up with Emily Hamilton, senior strategic designer at Paper Giant in Australia. Now we speak about a project that Emily worked on recently for Paper Giant that was related to recidivism and working with people who recently left a justice facility. Now we speak about the project in detail so that we have interest to people in the research world, the methods that were used, and the outcomes that were achieved by using these design methods.

[00:01:45] Emily is truly awesome. I know you're gonna love this conversation, so let's jump straight into it. Emily, it's great to have you on the show. I'm delighted to have you here. Um, I caught up one of your colleagues a couple of months ago, uh, Roy. So Roy [00:02:00] introduced us, but maybe for our audience, um, let's start off and tell us a little bit about yourself and where you're from.

[00:02:08] Uh, thanks Jerry. Excited to be here as well. Um, so I'm Emily Hamilton. My pronouns are she, her. I'm based on, um, war country in Melbourne, Australia. Um, and at the moment I'm working as a strategic designer, um, with a design agency, uh, paper Giant, and I've been there with them, um, for the past couple of years.

[00:02:27] Yeah, and I think you know a little bit about Paper Giant, but yeah, basically it's a. We work with a variety of organizations, sort of across the, um, public, private, and not-for-profit sectors, um, to design and deliver better product services than policies. Um, so the focus really is working with those organizations to create positive impact, um, by engaging in considering perspectives of and lived experiences of people who are affected.

[00:02:52] Nice. Like, yeah. So R Roy has been on the podcast before and I mentioned in that podcast, if you haven't listened to it, folks, go back [00:03:00] and listen to it. It's a really good episode. But Paper Giants are, uh, an organization that I'm familiar with, I don't know very well. Um, when I left Australia in 2018, um, they'd already found it as think at that stage, but over the last number of years, they've become one of the places that I check in regularly on what they're doing because they seem to be.

[00:03:21] Awesome. And working in exactly the right kind of, uh, kind of quadrant of meaningful and purposeful work. So I'm always excited to, to see what they're up to. But this project that, um, Roy had mentioned to me when we were speaking was really, really interesting and I'm excited to have you on to talk about it.

[00:03:42] Maybe start off and tell us, first of all, do you have a title for the project? Well, what do you refer to it as? Uh, within Paper Giant. Oh yeah, good question. Um, the title is, I think it was breaking the cycle of incarceration for people who use drugs. [00:04:00] Right. Um, so that was the question that we were really looking to respond to.

[00:04:05] Mm. Um, and that became really the focus of the whole project. Um, and how do we sort of co-design a response to that question? How do we break, um, help to break the cycle of incarceration for people who use drugs? And was that a case? Was that. Question. That's a, sounds like a, a research question, but was that question given to you or did you have to do some work to get to that point of, uh, articulation?

[00:04:32] Yeah, it was, um, it was given to us. We Research institute, who we partnered with on this project, um, had been working in this space for over a decade. So they came with a lot of subject matter knowledge and, um, expertise in this area. Yeah. Had done a vast amount of research, um, to understand, um, the different problems in this space.

[00:04:53] Yeah. And what they had sort of come up against is, um, the ability to sort of, Translate something into action. [00:05:00] Mm-hmm. Um, so taking those insights that they had on this sort of post-prison or that kind of post-prison landscape and then really understanding what can they do about it, which is where Paper Giant was engaged to facilitate that process, um, to think about.

[00:05:16] What kind of service models or what could we sort of put in place Yeah. Um, to support that post-prison landscape. So before we jump into the project itself, I'd love to learn a little bit more around your own background. Okay. Because, you know, when you look at the sort of researcher triangulation, whenever you're forming those projects, what perspective were you bringing to the project?

[00:05:39] In particular? Yeah, that's a great question. So I think, um, my skills are sort of a mix of facilitation, co-design, futures thinking. Um, I'm really passionate around centering lived experience. Mm-hmm. Um, and I've worked on a number of different projects, um, with Paper Giant to sort of look at. I guess what we call participatory strategy.

[00:05:59] Mm-hmm. [00:06:00] Which is something, um, paper Giant does really well. Um, and how to sort of engage, um, people with different experiences in a design process, um, to help sort of facilitate meaningful engagement, feel like, um, you know, they have agency. I love the phrase, um, The wisdom is in the room. And I guess I really see my role as creating, um, spaces and places for people to feel welcome and feel like they can have meaningful impact and, um, into whatever sort of problem space, um, that we're working.

[00:06:29] Alright, awesome. That's an awesome response. So, um, whenever you're, uh, at that point of where the, the question has been formed already, um, What kind of were the next steps for you in moving the project forward? What evidence did you have already in place from the, the research partner that you were working with and what was the, the first couple of days like?

[00:06:55] Look, it was really interesting. Um, Because we had a chance to shape [00:07:00] the project, um, with the client when they came to us, sort of before the project started. Yeah. Um, and it's a pretty complex sort of systemic problem as you sort of would understand, um, that post-prison landscape. Um, and the client was initially looking, Um, to create a system map to actually visualize the intervention points.

[00:07:20] Um, mm-hmm. But after some really early discussion, we realized again, sort of there was a lot of information that existed, um, and that real sort of systems change would have impact by creating those conditions for action or really kind of translating the research into tangible ways. Um, so in those first couple of days, um, our first week was really immersing in the problem space.

[00:07:42] So taking off sort of, What they'd been researching somewhere for the areas of the problem. Um, and engaging with the various experts who sort of work in the space, um, to understand what are we really working with here. Yeah. Um, how big is the [00:08:00] problem and. Do we need to create some boundaries in where we can actually focus?

[00:08:04] Mm-hmm. Um, cuz there's a various sizes and scales of um, what can be done. Um, and doing a little bit of more research into what people are currently doing in the, um, in Australia as well as overseas to sort of address the problem as well. Yeah. So there was a large amount of documents to sift through research to kind of do and really look at.

[00:08:25] What's, what's going on? Research. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you handle the whole CU curiosity piece? And this is one of the things that I, I struggle with as well, is when you're tackling the post, Um, sort of incarceration experience. In my experience, it's very hard to not want to get into the incarceration experience, to understand the sequencing, so you understand the precursors to the bit that you're researching.

[00:08:53] Um, Did you have the opportunity to explore that? Um, and if not, maybe what advice did [00:09:00] you have on being able to handle that level of curiosity? Cuz I'm always kinda like, well what does it look like? Where did they come from? You know, what, what were the conditions like to really understand the whole holistic, zoomed out perspective.

[00:09:10] Yeah. And I think it was really interesting because in this project's case, cuz we were talking about cycles of incarceration. Yeah. Quite often. The period, like the period sort of post-prison is actually the period after prison as well. So you find this sort of circular loop. Yeah. Where, um, the journey sort of perpetuates itself in this kind of cycle.

[00:09:33] So, mm. Um, there was. Um, uh, an itch I guess to sort of understand everything. Yeah. As you try, try and do you sort of, um, thirst for curiosity, for knowledge and understanding, you know, why is this the case? And you know, when numbers would emerge or you'd kind of see these problems and you're like, wow, the system is so fragmented.

[00:09:56] Yeah. Like, Putting your hands up and going, why, why, why [00:10:00] is it like this? Yeah. Um, and trying to sort of borrow down in those little rabbit holes, um, was difficult to not go down too much into the detail, but keep enough of that, you know, enough knowledge that you know, and you can speak to some of the areas.

[00:10:15] Um, so you could con confidently go into those co-design sessions. Yeah. Um, having a bit of a framework, um, and knowing kind of. What the spaces that we're playing with really look like from those perspectives of the people who experience it. I think it's really natural though, from a human perspective to really have those questions.

[00:10:34] But the real challenge there, um, Is, is not allowing yourself to get too deep, too quickly into those areas that aren't really in focus. And they're not gonna enable you to answer the research question, which for me is the whole kind of point of having the research question because you can go off on a tangent very quickly and then realize that you go down a rabbit hole.

[00:10:54] Um, But it's one of those things that I, I find myself still, it's like that itch where you're like, oh my God, I just really [00:11:00] need to know what was happening before that. It, it's sometimes that helps, you know what I mean? Sometimes it's definitely, there's, there's, uh, helpful curiosities, but I find it, it's kind of a common thing across a lot of the researchers that I speak to on this podcast.

[00:11:13] So maybe let's tell us a little bit more around the, the next step. So you, you were doing, uh, desk research. What were the key pieces that you wanted to focus on from that, from that research question and what were the pieces you were gonna address openly in the research? Yeah, so, um, it was interesting cuz in that the research sort of pointed, um, to all these different services that were currently provided in that, um, that landscape that we're addressing different needs and quite fragmented.

[00:11:45] Mm-hmm. Um, And we were really trying to think of this from the needs of a whole person. And we suddenly sort of came to this realization, um, when we were collaborating with our, um, partner, um, about how the need to sort of [00:12:00] reframe the problem space and stop. Looking at things in isolation and what does it mean if we sort of step back and consider the needs of a whole person, um, sort of coming out of prison.

[00:12:12] Mm-hmm. Um, so sort of reaming things from, um, you know, people need work opportunities, um, to call it meaningful things to do, um, from sort of people need, um, housing. Yeah. To. People need safe places to go. Um, you know, things like people need, um, to assigned case worker to reframing it to um, you know, people need support or people who can support them.

[00:12:39] Yeah. Um, and then sort of from that health perspective, um, sort of moving away from. Accessible healthcare to really, um, thinking about what the person needs, which was that feeling secure in their own health. Mm-hmm. Um, and so in that framing, that was what we took to the first co-design session, um, with our workshop participants.

[00:12:59] Mm. [00:13:00] Um, and they really reflected that the framing and thinking about these different needs of a, a person as a whole, um, sort of stepped away from those current system. Or service fragments. Yeah. And really allowed them to sort of sit in the problem space and think about things a little bit differently.

[00:13:19] Um, so that sort of reframing was that first. Piece that we started to play around with, um, to then sort of had that building box Nice. To be able to be like, well, which place are we going to? Um, which space are we going to solve? Yeah. Um, cuz I think people have multiple needs as they're coming out and, you know, one might be addressed for this or one might be addressed through that.

[00:13:40] Um, but there's no real kind of connected support that really sort of helps people to, to move and grow in that space. So in your experience, well, what did it look like when the, the prison opens the door and say, Besta look mate, and they open the door. What, what was that experience like for people? Yeah, we heard, [00:14:00] um, people saying it was a scary experience.

[00:14:03] Um, you know, in those first couple of weeks it's very overwhelming. Um, anything from navigating multiple appointments, um, people's schedules, Became jam packed with trying to get from one place to another. Mm-hmm. Um, because of compliance is quite strict and hard to follow. Um, There's this, I guess, when thinking about, um, things like Centrelink, which is the, um, Australian version of social payments.

[00:14:33] Yes, exactly. Yep. Um, so when they're looking, when people are looking for social payments, they might not have an idea Id, so sort of these steps in place or that to get an idea, they need an address and, you know, maybe they haven't got a fixed. Permanent address. So there's all these kind of things that people are thinking about and, um, the ability to dream was what the co-design participants sort of came up with as, you know, something that was sort of key, [00:15:00] key for them.

[00:15:00] And, um, you know, all these things and all these kind of admin stuff that's in front of people Mm. Um, that they can't actually sort of get to. Um, Putting their feet on the ground and really thinking about what they wanted to do. Yeah. Um, coming out of prison. Um, so that sort of idea of, um, overwhelm is what people end up sort of going back into that cycle.

[00:15:26] Um, turning back to you is, um, drugs and Yeah. And sort of that's the reason why some of that. Those cycles of incarceration, um, that have happened. So in your experience, was it a case that, um, I, I know the research question, um, includes that facet of using drugs. Um, in your experience, was the person, um, a drug user within prison and then they continue that pattern outside?

[00:15:54] Or is it. What does that look like? I think the, the focus of the question is it was sort of pre [00:16:00] prisons and then a lot of the time, um, people would actually get support to go off drugs in prison. Yeah. So they'd have various Yeah, exactly. Various therapies that were put in place, um, to support them in that process.

[00:16:14] But as you are coming out of prison, um, all of a sudden you have to pay, I think you have funding for two weeks and then you have to pay a lot of money to stay on. Some of these, um, these drugs, these, these, yeah. So, um, you know, that's another barrier of people having to navigate and, you know, going to the pharmacy and getting these kind of yeah things and having that sort of established processes in place.

[00:16:39] Um, it's sort of lifted and you're on, it's on, you're on your own kind of thing. So there's just not that, um, continuation of support for a lot of people. So what were you seeing in terms of. The, the kind of drugs that were, were being used. Uh, was it, uh, I know in Australia there's an ice epidemic. There was when I was living [00:17:00] there.

[00:17:00] Is that still the case where there's, uh, an awful lot of usage in a, in a particular type of drug that, that seems to captivate? Um, yeah. We didn't, we didn't necessarily get into that detail. Detail, totally. It was, um, yeah, it was usually around injecting. Um, injecting narcotics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[00:17:22] Um, so that's sort of, and I think it's, it's important to note, um, that. The people, you know, it's an addiction Yeah. Issue. Um, it's a health issue and kind of taking that back, um, to quite often these people have, um, very complex histories of social economic health disadvantage. Yeah. Um, and conditions that are really exacerbated by incarceration.

[00:17:47] Um, and that actually going into prison can calm, um, cause significant harm. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was really interesting to see, uh, some different examples of. Places across the world, like in Norway, [00:18:00] um, there's not prison guards and it's actually, um, the people who are there in, um, prisoners, psychologists, and, you know, people who are there to actually rehabilitate you.

[00:18:10] Yeah. Um, and you sort of go through that re rehabilitation process, um, rather than sort of getting stuck into an institution that's, um, you know, not. Going to rehabilitate you and yeah. Have that kind of outcome. That's one of the big things when, um, I was working in that space, the effectiveness of the service to rehabilitate is never very rarely questioned, and the effectiveness of actually spending.

[00:18:40] 10 years in that environment, how effective is that human being going to be when they're let out? Like, are they completely re rehabilitated? Because that's the whole kind of thing when they go up for parole. Like, you know, like, okay, now, now you're rehabilitated. We think you're rehabilitated now. And obviously there's more to it than that.

[00:18:58] But in your, um, [00:19:00] in this project in question here at the moment, was that that experience, um, did you get the opportunity to go back into that? That precursor piece and understand the, the kind of criteria, the things that were being done to really enable more of a successful outcome in the post-prison experience.

[00:19:20] Yeah, and it really, it we did, and it really came down to those sort of four things, um, that we were playing around with and we reframed. So the meaningful things to do. Places to go that feel safe. Um, people who support me and feeling secure in my health. So yeah, those were sort of the four domains when we sort of reframed the, the problem space.

[00:19:40] Those were sort of the four core needs. Mm-hmm. Um, and dil building sort of a community or a sense of belonging. Um, In how those, um, needs were met. Yeah. Um, and providing people choice in that sort of person-centered approach. Um, you know, one thing's not necessarily right for all people. Um, [00:20:00] so how could, um, we look to sort of adapt whatever this thing.

[00:20:03] Service model we were designing to be, to sort of meet people where they were at, um, with different needs and okay, different, um, things that they wanted to do. And even I think it's worthwhile noting as well. Um, the two weeks coming out of prison are quite different from three months down and. You know, five months or a year Okay.

[00:20:21] Later for different people. Um, and that sort of overwhelm can go on for a short or quite a long period of time. So, um, it's very different journeys for different people. So what does it look like in terms of the, the mental health support? Um, because it seems to be that there's definitely a correlation between, you know, the support and the mental health and, um, the likelihood of, you know, Reuptake in, in drugs and stuff like that.

[00:20:49] Are the people that you were researching still drug users when they left prison or were they had, had they stopped successfully and then the opportunity may, may arise [00:21:00] to, to reuse? What, what does that scenario look like? Can you give you a little bit more information on that? Um, we didn't necessarily touch on that specifically with a clean or not Yeah.

[00:21:09] Whether they were, yeah, exactly. And I think it sort of came to a point. Of does it matter if they're clean, if they're living their life in the way that they want to? Mm-hmm. Um, so that idea of the harm reduction approach being sort of a core principle of what we were doing. Um, so really sort of making sure that we're, you know, we're not.

[00:21:33] Um, there's various places in, um, Australia and sort of overseas and things where you can actually go to sort of, I guess, more of a re rehabilitation model. Yeah. Um, but that's not necessarily right or effective for all people. Um, and it's again, those kind of different choices on, um, what you wanna do in, in terms of, you know, abstinence based stuff might work for some people, but other people that's not the path that they might want to follow.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Sure. Yeah. So, um, During the research, there was, uh, you had a number of sessions when we were speaking beforehand. Um, how did you go about the, um, the word is the, recruited the participants for those sessions? What, what did that look like? Was, was your research partner able to help you connect with people who have recently, um, you know, left the prison system?

[00:22:24] Yeah, they were, and they had actually started, um, work with this co-design group Oh, awesome. In 2019. So, but then because Covid hit and they couldn't do it sort of face-to-face, they ended up pausing things. Okay. Um, so we were able to sort of pick, pick up sort of where that group had left off. Sure. Um, there were a couple of people who weren't involved and we had some new people, but they were.

[00:22:51] Which was one of the lucky things about this project, that their recruitment wasn't a, a great hurdle because they'd done a lot of work in terms of building the relationships with the, [00:23:00] um, people that we were engaging. Um, but it was a range of, um, I think we had 25 participants in total. Okay. Um, and we engaged them in various capacities.

[00:23:09] So there was sort of five face-to-face workshops mm-hmm. Um, that we ran sort of in a half day sessions. And then we had also had these little satellite sessions that we ran. In parallel to that. Mm-hmm. Um, for people who couldn't attend the workshops face-to-face that week or, um, you know, they were, um, couldn't make it for one reason or another, but they sort of played a role, I guess, as more as critical friends jumping into the process.

[00:23:34] Um, yeah. You know, everyone was quite invested in this and wanting to be involved. Um, So we played back sort of some of the outcomes of those workshops and um, they were able to, I guess, avoid that kind of group, think in what we were creating and provide new perspectives. So it was really cool to have, um, be able to make it a little bit more accessible, nice.

[00:23:56] And sort of be a bit more fluid in how we are engaging everyone. Can you, [00:24:00] um, elaborate a little bit more on those five half day sessions? Um, can you remember bits, uh, that were included in those sessions? Um, And how important was space to be created for? Um, just space for vulnerability. That's one of the pieces I'm really interested in when I, when I'm recent.

[00:24:22] So researching socially, what did that look like in terms of the lead up to the workshop, uh, when you were preparing people for that? Yeah. Yeah. I think we wanted to really, um, You know, create spaces that were warm and welcoming. And also, um, the group really wanted time to build relationships with each other as well.

[00:24:44] Mm-hmm. So enough time that we could have lunch, um, people could go for breaks and have a chat and grab some food. And we weren't sort of on a really tight, rigid schedule. Like, you know, we obviously planned out the workshop agenda, but there was time and flexibility within those [00:25:00] workshop plans. To have those spaces and kind of respond to those needs.

[00:25:04] Um, making sure that we were, you know, having, being hosp hos, no hospital hospitable hospi hos hospitable. I sure we were hospital Mark. You cut that out. Yeah, it's alright. No, we're definitely leaving that one in. Um, so you're being hospitable, um, and you had Yeah, go ahead. I love it. And, um, I think at each, at the end of each session, we had a really quick feedback sheet that just sort of allowed people to check in, um, with an emoji sort of how they were feeling.

[00:25:36] And then what did they like in this session and what would they like to see more of in next session. And, you know, yeah. Someone told us they wanted ice cream, so the next session we got ice cream, like, you know, those kind of Oh, nice things. That was a really lightweight. Um, you know, a low effort thing on their behalf.

[00:25:53] Yeah. But it allowed us to sort of really adapt, um, each session. So by the end, we were really working [00:26:00] cohesively in a, as a group. And, you know, it was really amazing to see, um, you know, the group start from something small and sort of have these ideas and then it really sort of grew Yeah. Throughout the process.

[00:26:11] Um, so I can talk a bit, little bit more around. Approach and kind of what we did engaged. Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear that. That helps the group. What was the group size? Yeah, Emily, just when I think about it, what was the group size that you had in the workshops? 25 people engaged overall, but we wouldn't have had more than 14 at a time in the workshops.

[00:26:29] Yeah. Um, so we, um, the first one was the, probably the biggest one, and then we were usually working with around 10 people, but we didn't wanted the group to be. Very, yeah. You know, impersonal. And we had it initially at that size because we knew people. Knew each other. So it wasn't too overwhelming coming into a big, um, big group without people Sure.

[00:26:53] Sort of knowing. But we also made sure that, um, you know, all the activity, we gave people choice in how they wanted [00:27:00] to respond. So, um, some people I. Wouldn't like writing and you know, they preferred to kind of, we had Play-Doh so they, you know, make things with Play-Doh or other people who were professionals, you know, loved writing down on post-it notes.

[00:27:12] So there was, we made it. Um, I guess in terms of the, that kind of shifting power made it okay for everyone to choose how they wanted to engage and how they wanted to communicate. Yeah, we had lots of different things to help them to sort of express themselves in different ways. Love. Um, but the first session, We really focused on setting up the group, um, centering ourselves on that kind of focus question.

[00:27:37] Yeah. Um, and creating a shared understanding of the current things that do and don't work well. Mm-hmm. Um, so identifying areas of change, working with those for problem spaces, um, or for sort of needs spaces. Um, And then we had a bit of a engaging activity at the end where we had all these crafty materials on a table and asked them to [00:28:00] create a vision, um, of what it might look like.

[00:28:03] Um, so they sort of, um, created this idea that what we were working towards, um, was. For people to leave prison and it was gonna be a well-resourced, interconnected support network that took sort of a holistic view of their needs. Um, and this thing needed to provide them stability, connection, and then the ability to dream.

[00:28:24] So that was the sort of vision that we put together. Awesome. Um, in that session, yeah. Um, the second workshop we focused on, The future state. Um, so we had a number of different, um, activities to start getting people to ideate, um, and imagining what was possible sort of first coming up with, um, ideas in, we did some silly sixes, um Yeah.

[00:28:49] Which is on paper, and then you folded into the six squares. Um, and then sort of working together in different groups to see how those little ideas might come together. Yeah. [00:29:00] Um, and that's when we started to realize that, um, That timeline of needs is quite different. Um, so are we focusing on directly after prison versus, um, you know, six months or 12 months down the track?

[00:29:15] Um, so workshop three, um, we. Did some story boarding. So we created sort of three different scenarios and we got some story boarding kits and cartoons. Um, I just sort of downloaded a pack that I found online and printed out a bunch of these different characters. Yeah. Um, and then had the group sort of work through story boarding, what this thing could look like at different stages of the journey.

[00:29:40] Mm-hmm. Um, The workshop for, um, we started to sense check sort of what we'd created. So by this time we were having a pretty good idea around how the service model was looking. Um, but there was certain gaps. Um, That we had in terms of how it sort of functionally would work. [00:30:00] Um, so Paper Giant has a suitcase of Lego, so we brought that suitcase of Lego to this workshop.

[00:30:07] Yeah. And we asked them to sort of start to build this thing. And it was really interesting to see how the different methods we used started to bring different perspectives in what. It could be and sort of started to challenge, I guess some of the initial ideas around what they had. But when we started to build it with Lego, it was like, no, these, this can't be there.

[00:30:28] Like this has to sort of sit at the back of this, you know, thing that we're creating. So the priorities started to change when, you know the fidelity started start to, yeah. Yeah. Yep, exactly. Um, and we did some card sorting as well to sort of work out the kinds of services to include, and I think we end up writing some job descriptions in some of the satellite sessions around who would work here and what would be the value proposition, um, for people sort of working there as well.

[00:30:56] Yeah. Um, and then the last session, um, we sort of came back, [00:31:00] we did a bit of, um, synthesis as a, as a group. Um, and then we came back to, um, sort of present back. What we were sort of looking at. Um, and we just had some conversations in that last session to really reflect on what we've done, um, and kind of question how we could, um, implement this thing either at a small scale and then looking at how it could, um, grow.

[00:31:23] Um, Putting a critical lens on it to talk about what might go wrong or the risks and how we might kind of navigate those. Um, and talking about the values and how this thing might sort of integrate into the community. Um, so that was sort of the rounded, rounded out the, those five engagements. Um, nice. But it was really handy because we'd set up a really clear goal at the start.

[00:31:48] Um, We had a strong kind of idea around what we were working towards, and everyone sort of shared that perspective. Um, and the boundaries sort of started to [00:32:00] shift. Um, and people started to realize sort of what could be possible. Yeah. As we started to work through and sort of built on each other's ideas.

[00:32:07] So, um, there was a wealth of expertise in the room from various perspectives. Um, yeah. And they really kind of came together to shape what this looks like re really nice, um, in terms of the length of the project. What was that like? Yeah, it was, um, 14 weeks. Okay. Um, we did it in three phases. So that first phase was, um, looking at the previous research and establishing our understanding.

[00:32:39] The second phase was, um, the first couple of workshops. Yeah. Sort of getting an idea around where we're going. Um, and then that last phase was kind of bringing it back together, um, and producing some of the outputs, um, that we needed to create, um, for this, for this project. Um, so because, um, This, the at the end product, [00:33:00] um, is sort of going for, for funding and implementation.

[00:33:04] Yeah. We needed to create, I guess a narrative and a story around, um, service model. What was we are creating. So we did, yeah. Yeah. What the service model was. So we, um, engaged Dean Liva, who's a videographer and heated a, created a video of the process. Awesome. That showed the narrative. Yeah. Um, from the co-design participants perspective about.

[00:33:24] In their involvement and what the outcome of the service model would have. Yeah. Um, and we also, um, got an amazing illustrator, April, to do up some sort of isometric drawings and create some renderings model. So using them to really sort of communicate how the system could shift or, you know, Communicate that systems change that we wanted to see.

[00:33:49] Um, and using co-design, I guess as a process, um, to create some of that system shifting. Absolutely brilliant. In terms of one question about the research piece and the, uh, well, [00:34:00] the facilitation piece and the outputs of those workshops, um, when it came to analysis and sense making, um, how was that approached and was there, um, Other people involved who maybe were part of the workshops to help with the sense making process or how did you tackle that?

[00:34:17] We used the, those little satellite sessions to do a bit of the sense making. So it was sort of, we'd come to outcomes at the end of the workshops, and then these sort of hour long remote sessions we're up to play back what we had done in those workshops and use those sessions to help them sort of critique and add and sense make what we'd.

[00:34:39] In those sessions. Okay. Um, following that, we'd do a little bit as a paper giant team, we'd do a little bit of crafting to, um, you know, shape a few things up. So whether that was creating some visuals to then sort of play things back at the next session, um, or sort of just going through the detail and tightening up some of the language.

[00:34:58] You know, sometimes we'd have [00:35:00] long lists of things and sort of working as a team to kind of condense that and bring that back to the group. Um, but we made sure. That we tried to make sure that most decisions were made in those workshops by the people who giving the power sort of back to the people who, in those participants in those workshops, to really sort of shape the outcomes of what this thing, um, could be.

[00:35:21] Absolutely. Emily, we're coming towards the end of, of our episode here. Um, I, I wanna thank you first of all for. Being so open, it's, it's very difficult to find people like Emily folks. Uh, there's probably people listening who are like, well, I'm one of them, Jerry. If so, email me. Um, but really to find these kind of projects that have real value, um, and real involvement of people during the process that lived experience.

[00:35:48] So, but in order to deliver it in such a powerful way that you've done in this episode, I wanna thank you for, for giving me your time, your space, and your vulnerability and, and being able to share that information with me. I know our audience are [00:36:00] gonna love this episode because it ticks, as I said to you beforehand, all the boxes and why this is hate CD exists and why it's become so popular, um, for people who want to connect with you.

[00:36:10] Emily, um, what's the best way? Is it LinkedIn? Yeah. Yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, that's probably the best way. I'll put a link to, um, your LinkedIn in, in the show notes. And also, is there anything on the Paper Giant website where people can learn more about this project? Is there a case study or anything?

[00:36:30] Not yet, but hopefully soon there will be. Okay. And hopefully within the next couple of months we'll be able to post that video as well. Yeah. Um, that was created through the process, which, uh, you know, it's good for me to talk about it, but hearing from the people who are involved in the. The process for the codig is just even more powerful.

[00:36:51] Well, maybe what we could do in a couple of months when that's out yourself and if there's somebody from, uh, the other side and the research partner, whoever, who, whoever's enabling [00:37:00] that piece, if they wanna come back on the show and talk about it, I know our audience would love to hear about it, um, because it's great for other territories to be able to point at things and find these things, which is a lot of our listeners are from overseas as well.

[00:37:12] So, Emmy, thank you so much for your time. Thanks, Jerry. It's been great talking to you.

[00:37:21] There you go, folks. I hope you enjoyed that episode and if you enjoyed it and want to listen to more, why not visit? This is hate cd.com where you can learn more about what we are up to and also explore our courses while through there. Thanks again for listening.

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