From Hustle to Flow – Steven Puri on Real Productivity

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD My name is Gerry Scullion and I'm a human-centered service designer based in the beautiful city of Dublin Ireland. Now, [00:00:10] today on the show, I'm joined by Steven Prie, a fascinating guest who lived [00:00:15] in two very different worlds from producing Oscar winning effects on Blockbusters like [00:00:20] Independence Day.

[00:00:21] Gerry Scullion: To raising $20 million in venture capital and running multiple set [00:00:25] startups. Steven has seen the highs and lows of both Hollywood and Silicon Valley, [00:00:30] but there's three things in this conversation that I think you're gonna resonate with. The first thing is the [00:00:35] shift from the hustle culture of Hollywood to the intentional design.

[00:00:38] Gerry Scullion: Steven is brutally [00:00:40] honest about how unsustainable the industry grind was and how he redesigned his life around [00:00:45] clarity and purpose. Now, the second thing is redefining productivity. He [00:00:50] makes powerful cases, case studies for measuring impact by outcomes, not by hours under [00:00:55] fluorescent lights. Something many of us will resonate with.

[00:00:57] Gerry Scullion: And the third thing is the role of [00:01:00] wellbeing practices like yoga, uh, not as a lifestyle accessory, but as a [00:01:05] survival tool that helped him through failure, burnout, and rebuilding. If you're questioning your own [00:01:10] definition of productivity or what successes really look like, you're gonna love this one.[00:01:15]

[00:01:15] Gerry Scullion: Please don't forget to subscribe to this as HCD. It helps those beautiful algorithms [00:01:20] just make something simple as liking this and sharing It really helps other people [00:01:25] find the podcast. It helps us grow, find new audiences, and ultimately it helps try and make a difference in [00:01:30] the world. I know you're gonna enjoy this one, so let's jump straight in.[00:01:35] [00:01:40]

[00:01:42] Gerry Scullion: Steven. How are you doing? I'm delighted to have [00:01:45] you on the podcast. Maybe you might start off, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're [00:01:50] from and what you do.

[00:01:51] Steven Puri: Let's just dive right in. I love that. Yeah, pretty much. Um, [00:01:55] okay. For those playing at home or driving in their car, here is the short version [00:02:00] of why this may be interesting to listen to.

[00:02:02] Steven Puri: Yeah. I'm one of the few people you'll meet [00:02:05] that has been a senior executive at two motion picture studios at Dreamworks and Fox. [00:02:10] Yeah. And has also raised over $20 million of venture capital and [00:02:15] run three companies, one successful exit and two failures, which were painful by the way. [00:02:20] Um, so in the course of doing that, learned a lot about [00:02:25] energy levels and productivity and sort of mental awareness and how certain [00:02:30] environments can be designed for success.

[00:02:31] Steven Puri: 'cause I happen to work with a lot of successful people. [00:02:35] And have done a lot of the reading of the, the people who came before us who said, Hey, let me dig into this. [00:02:40] And left us a really great, you know, set of, of, uh, learning. So that's really [00:02:45] what I hope we get into today.

[00:02:46] Gerry Scullion: So what was life like, um, for Steven [00:02:50] before, um, you explored productivity?

[00:02:53] Gerry Scullion: How, how, how did you work and [00:02:55] what was your style of work like before you really had that reflective? Well, I'll tell you,

[00:02:59] Steven Puri: [00:03:00] a lot of it was, uh, I don't wanna say unconsidered. In that, oh, well this [00:03:05] is the pattern of the people around me, therefore I shall match it. Yeah. So [00:03:10] when I got out of college, university to you?

[00:03:14] Steven Puri: Yes. I was [00:03:15] in Los Angeles. I went to the University of Southern California, which even though I [00:03:20] had a background in engineering, I was actually, my parents were both engineers at IBM, so I was a [00:03:25] little junior software engineer who went to school, and a lot of my friends were in cinema [00:03:30] tv. So when I fell into that world of, oh, [00:03:35] filmmakers and computers were doing film and stuff, right?

[00:03:38] Steven Puri: It was a culture of, [00:03:40] Hey man, if you're not here at 4:00 AM are you really part of the team? [00:03:45] Okay. So I'm, you know, 20, 21, 22 years old, I'm like, this is how it works. And there was not a [00:03:50] lot of, let me study energy and patterns and mental awareness. Let's, [00:03:55] there's no huberman podcast, you know, and things like that.

[00:03:59] Steven Puri: So I, [00:04:00] I got pretty deeply into that. And when I [00:04:05] started my first company, it was off, uh, doing Independence Day. I produced, [00:04:10] uh, to be clear, so I started in film because as someone who knew [00:04:15] engineering and was somewhat creative, there was this field of digital image. [00:04:20] Yeah. Computers were suddenly powerful enough to say we could create an entire film image.

[00:04:24] Steven Puri: And [00:04:25] then you had that explosion of CG companies, right. I happened to [00:04:30] produce the digital effects or the digital titles and stuff for a number of movies. So I got to work with Jim Cameron on True [00:04:35] Lies, David Fincher on seven. Uh, I did Braveheart and I Mortal [00:04:40] Beloved with Mel. I worked with Woody Allen, Jim Jarm, and down Johnny up on Deadman, a bunch of stuff, [00:04:45] right?

[00:04:45] Steven Puri: But when I went on Independence Day and the digital effects. [00:04:50] We happen to win the the Academy Award for the visual effects. That movie, you know, which is a group [00:04:55] achievement, there are a thousand people who are really responsible for that. I'm just one of them. But a [00:05:00] rising tide lifts all boats. So I started my first company because the director and [00:05:05] producer and writer of independent state and I got along really well, we're like, let's do a company together to do [00:05:10] these digital things.

[00:05:10] Steven Puri: Right. So that was my first company I started. We raised about 15 million in venture, [00:05:15] and it was my first exit. Now I definitely had looked at what I'd [00:05:20] seen and matched that, which is, oh, we have to have this certain kind of hustle culture. [00:05:25] People are here late at night, we're ordering pizzas at midnight.

[00:05:28] Steven Puri: We know the only place you know in Santa [00:05:30] Monica that delivered pizzas at one in the morning. Like is that sort of culture right? So I would say it's [00:05:35] not intentional. Design is designed by just pattern matching that which was around [00:05:40] later in my film days. Like as [00:05:45] development executive, I started to see patterns in like who was burning out, who was going to the [00:05:50] wayside, like screw this.

[00:05:50] Steven Puri: This is way too much for way too little return. [00:05:55] And then when I went back into tech, you know, I think around diehard five, [00:06:00] uh, Wolverine, the Wolverine sequel, like that was when I was at Fox running those franchises and I was [00:06:05] like, these are terrible movies. This is not what I wanna wake up be doing when I'm 40, 50 years old.[00:06:10]

[00:06:10] Steven Puri: And the only other thing I knew how to do was engineering. So I went full circle from like [00:06:15] engineering into film, back into engineering. Okay. And applied a lot of those lessons. [00:06:20]

[00:06:20] Gerry Scullion: So, so let, let's come back to, um, to that question around the, the ways [00:06:25] of working. So you left university. It sounds like pretty much [00:06:30] how I imagine American culture, especially American movie culture to be [00:06:35] where, as you said, it was the hustle culture of, you know, upper, early, you know, American [00:06:40] psycho, Christian Bay.

[00:06:42] Gerry Scullion: Wow.

[00:06:43] Steven Puri: I think American psychos said in [00:06:45] Manhattan, in in finance. Okay. But you know, we'll go with it. Kind of like

[00:06:47] Gerry Scullion: high, high flying, kind of like up [00:06:50] early. Yeah. You know, working out, you know. Sharing, uh, [00:06:55] you know, yeah. No rails of

[00:06:56] Steven Puri: cocaine for breakfast. I mean, you get it, you know, we all did that.

[00:06:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:07:00] Right. I know, I know.

[00:07:01] Gerry Scullion: It's like, you know, having a private driver and all of that kind of stuff, we working really [00:07:05] like very, very hard, very long hours. Um, and like that probably [00:07:10] speaks to a lot more around the American culture of like, you know, you don't get as many holiday days as you do in, in Europe and [00:07:15] so forth. True. Yeah.

[00:07:16] Gerry Scullion: But, but generally speaking, when you were at. In your early twenties or mid [00:07:20] twenties, the people that you looked up to at that stage, they might have lived through that for 20 or [00:07:25] 30 years. What, what were you seeing, um, in people that you might have respected and worked [00:07:30] with who were in, in seniority within those companies?

[00:07:32] Gerry Scullion: Were they living happy, fulfilled lives? [00:07:35] Um, or they really rich and, uh, you know, pretty [00:07:40] miserable and what, what did that look like, sort of the future? I can't imagine

[00:07:44] Steven Puri: that you have an [00:07:45] idea what the answer is, but let me just spring it upon you. Right. Yeah. I saw a couple of [00:07:50] things. I saw the people who were burned out and left.[00:07:55]

[00:07:55] Steven Puri: I saw people who still believed there was a brass ring right above them [00:08:00] and were hustling into their thirties, forties, and sometimes fifties. Right? Yeah. [00:08:05] And then there were people who had often done [00:08:10] whatever was necessary, and I'm just gonna leave it at that, to advance their careers. [00:08:15] And may have achieved the thing that they were looking for, which would've been got their movie made, [00:08:20] got their TV series made, made a certain amount of money, that sort of thing, got a table at the restaurant, bought the house in Bel Air, [00:08:25] whatever, and usually at that point in their life, we're really struggling with [00:08:30] having children.

[00:08:31] Steven Puri: Trying to reconcile what they had done. You know how [00:08:35] yeah. Many of those families were divorced. Like I saw the repercussions of that kind of mentality [00:08:40] play out once you are actually not a solar operator, but you have maybe a husband or a wife, [00:08:45] and then you have kids and those concepts around like, what values do we have?

[00:08:49] Steven Puri: Which, [00:08:50] um, I mean, you know, you and I have talked about this. I'm having my son in like eight weeks, my [00:08:55] first child, and I've been thinking a lot about what. Have I, and what will I do [00:09:00] to influence the world to be slightly better? 'cause I'm gonna be gone one day and this is gonna be his world. [00:09:05] And did I leave it better or worse?

[00:09:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What role did you play? [00:09:10] I mean, let, let's go back to that transition period of where you were like, you know, in the hustle culture. [00:09:15] Mm-hmm. And you, you exited, you were reflecting and you were kind of. [00:09:20] Projecting yourself into the future saying, if I maintain this kind of cadence, I maintain this lifestyle, I maintain this, [00:09:25] this working style as well.

[00:09:27] Gerry Scullion: You know, it probably doesn't lend itself to [00:09:30] what you are hoping to achieve with your life.

[00:09:32] Steven Puri: Is that fair? My, you tell me when I. [00:09:35] When out of film development in back into tech, that turn,

[00:09:38] Gerry Scullion: I guess not even like [00:09:40] career focus, it's more about you were planning your life, like you were seeing that there is a [00:09:45] shift required in your, in the way you were living and things had to change.

[00:09:49] Gerry Scullion: [00:09:50] Um, yeah. Okay. So

[00:09:51] Steven Puri: I, I think what you're probing at is that period of time, and let me [00:09:55] tell you, there are a couple things that influenced how I designed that next era of my life,

[00:09:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:10:00] right?

[00:10:01] Steven Puri: So. At Fox. I'm not going [00:10:05] to name names, but please do the

[00:10:07] Steven Puri: uh, yeah, but Fox was a News [00:10:10] Corp company and style comes from the top

[00:10:13] Gerry Scullion: right

[00:10:14] Steven Puri: period.[00:10:15]

[00:10:15] Steven Puri: Okay. So there were a number of movies on my slate as a [00:10:20] senior executive is there as the vice president. You know, there are, basically, the way the studios are set up is you [00:10:25] have like a chairman chairperson. And they're coordinating [00:10:30] all the departments and their green lighting movies. Right. And then just beneath them, you have usually [00:10:35] six to eight vice presidents of different flavors.

[00:10:37] Steven Puri: Senior vice president, executive vice president, vice president, [00:10:40] right? Yeah. And the studio slate is divided among them. So you are an advocate for [00:10:45] your portion of the studio slate. So if that's, let's say there are 400 projects in development, [00:10:50] books the studio has bought to make into movies, video games, [00:10:55] scripts, uh, pitches.

[00:10:57] Steven Puri: And there are eight vice presidents. That [00:11:00] means each one is basically responsible for 50 of these projects.

[00:11:04] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:11:05] Half,

[00:11:05] Steven Puri: right. So you're the advocate for those. Some of those are ones that you buy where you're like, Hey man, [00:11:10] I bought this S Scion project. It's a biopic about this guy. And some of 'em are, Hey, I got the [00:11:15] Lego rights.

[00:11:15] Steven Puri: You know what I mean? And you are the advocate to say, this is why we should make this movie. [00:11:20] So I had a moment. At Fox where I was like, wow. The [00:11:25] original projects when, when the guy who was the chairman of Fox Film Entertainment recruited me, [00:11:30] he was super clear. He is like, I will buy you Adam Dreamworks. I will double your [00:11:35] salary.

[00:11:35] Steven Puri: I will give you the Wolverine. I'll give you the diehard franchise. You probably grew up watching. [00:11:40] Die Hard. Do you want to be the guy making the next diehard movie? Sounded pretty cool. He's like, [00:11:45] we have a lot of money. We have avatar money around, so I will give you a checkbook to go [00:11:50] buy projects from the writers that won't work here.

[00:11:53] Steven Puri: You have relationships [00:11:55] with them from Dreamworks. 'cause Dreamworks was a writer friendly studio. It was the only studio run by a filmmaker, and [00:12:00] that was amazing working for Steven and Daisy, you know. So he was like, come here [00:12:05] and bring over, you know, Alex Kurtz and Bob Worley. Bring over Dame Lindelof, bring over, you know, [00:12:10] Billy Ray and Chris Macquarie and like these amazing, amazing writers.

[00:12:13] Steven Puri: So I had a bunch of these on my slate. [00:12:15] The only one that he cared about was diehard five. He's like, I could give him [00:12:20] updates on like, oh man, I've got Chris Macquarie doing this, da da da. And he'd be like, Uhhuh, like you're reading a list of dirty underwear. [00:12:25] They need to go to the laundry. And at the end of it, he'd be like, Uhhuh Uhhuh.

[00:12:28] Steven Puri: So how's the hard five? [00:12:30] And I realized that that movie, even though the script was terrible written by a guy who was later kicked outta the Writer's Guild for p [00:12:35] plagiarism, oh, that was just a studio franchise that was going to get made. [00:12:40] And it's, it's called Show Business. It's not called Show Art.

[00:12:43] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:12:43] Steven Puri: so that was a real [00:12:45] crisis for me of like, wow, I got this amazing job that's, you know, a lot of people envy, but I'm just the [00:12:50] guy sitting in the chair.

[00:12:51] Steven Puri: There'll be someone else here in two years. There was someone here two years ago, [00:12:55] someone else would be making diehard 19, and it really doesn't matter. It's sausage, right? Yeah. Around the same [00:13:00] time yoga came into my life,

[00:13:02] Steven Puri: it was in India, discovered yoga. [00:13:05] There

[00:13:05] Steven Puri: was something about that melding of the spiritual and the physical.

[00:13:09] Steven Puri: It [00:13:10] definitely affected me. Okay. And I wasn't, I had tried a couple years, [00:13:15] years earlier, my girlfriend was the director of marketing for a chain called YogaWorks. And she had given me [00:13:20] like a free class card, like eight or 10 classes. She'd given me Yoga Mat. I tried it. I was like, I [00:13:25] don't get it. And like two years later I tried it.

[00:13:27] Steven Puri: I was like, oh, now [00:13:30] suddenly I understand the gift she was trying to give me and I just wasn't ready. Right. Watch,

[00:13:34] Gerry Scullion: [00:13:35] because I've tried yoga and it didn't. Didn't resonate with me and I haven't tried it since. But what, what [00:13:40] shifted for you in those two years? Well, this is the thing

[00:13:42] Steven Puri: is I, I [00:13:45] know the effect it had on me as opposed to, I, I can't pinpoint like, well, [00:13:50] because this had a spiritually changed me.

[00:13:51] Steven Puri: I was ready for it, but I knew that the clarity [00:13:55] that came from it was something I craved then. But I don't know that when I was [00:14:00] in like a, you know, development that, that kind of clarity, I value the [00:14:05] same way.

[00:14:06] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:14:06] Steven Puri: And so those, those [00:14:10] pieces of, okay, what I'm doing is basically meaningless. Diehard five will not affect the world in any way.[00:14:15]

[00:14:15] Steven Puri: Yoga came to me and I had a clarity of thought. Those [00:14:20] things together affected me, and I was like, I think I need to choose something [00:14:25] that's more meaningful. That's probably higher risk. You know, doing startups are higher risk. I did two [00:14:30] startups before a suka company that failed. And man, was that coupled with [00:14:35] embarrassment?

[00:14:35] Steven Puri: 'cause all my friends in film were watching, they were like, I was one of the first film guys to leave film. Now [00:14:40] obviously everyone's kind of left film, but when I left it was like, what are you [00:14:45] doing going into technology? Like you're gonna be a geek and sit behind a computer. You could be [00:14:50] making films, you know?

[00:14:51] Steven Puri: And when my first company failed, I just wanted to crawl under a rock. [00:14:55] I didn't wanna bump into friends at the dry cleaners 'cause they'd be like, Hey, how's it [00:15:00] going? I'm like, Jerry, actually awful. Like, I'm probably gonna close my company. I raised 3 million. I think I'm gonna [00:15:05] lose all my investors' money.

[00:15:06] Steven Puri: Lost three quarters of a million of my own money. And I was like, this [00:15:10] is painful, you know? Yeah. But yoga helped me through that every day. That was an [00:15:15] hour of just like. A cleansing sort of physical practice, which I didn't [00:15:20] get from weightlifting. I didn't get from trying to be a runner, which I suck at.

[00:15:23] Steven Puri: I'm just not good at running. [00:15:25] You know what things like that didn't get from anything else.

[00:15:29] Gerry Scullion: So let's [00:15:30] talk about productivity. Okay? What does it mean and who defines [00:15:35] what it means to be productive?

[00:15:37] Steven Puri: I'm gonna open this, which is not a beer. For those listening [00:15:40] at home, the sound you're gonna hear is eight.

[00:15:43] Steven Puri: Exactly that is a [00:15:45] water. Just that I can speak clearly and answer. I've had one of those

[00:15:48] Gerry Scullion: cans of water before. It's kind of like [00:15:50] an anticlimax

[00:15:50] Steven Puri: right? Can of water. Brought to you by the Coors Corporation. I'm kidding. It's not a beer. [00:15:55] Yeah. So, um, or an ale or an IPA or anything fancy. I don't [00:16:00] even drink. Uh,

[00:16:02] Steven Puri: I hope that the world move towards, moves [00:16:05] towards this work.

[00:16:08] Steven Puri: Productivity

[00:16:09] Steven Puri: is [00:16:10] measured by the effect. Of your actions as opposed to how long those actions took, [00:16:15] where they were performed. So, you know, I'm a big advocate for a [00:16:20] flexible work environment. Yeah. So I really think productivity needs to be about [00:16:25] how do you walk into a staff meeting or onto a staff zoom and say, Hey man, I had a thought.

[00:16:29] Steven Puri: [00:16:30] And everyone on that goes, wow, that that kind of changes the trajectory of our company. We should [00:16:35] do, you know what Jerry said? Like right now? This is a great idea. That to me is productivity [00:16:40] as opposed to, Hey man, we're all under the same fluorescent lights for 10 hours a day, five days a week. They're like, great.

[00:16:44] Steven Puri: [00:16:45] Right. We're being productive. We're all here. I don't think that that's necessarily a, a [00:16:50] correlation.

[00:16:51] Gerry Scullion: Okay. It's funny that it, I'm [00:16:55] speaking to you today because I was only speaking to one of my friends earlier on today where I feel like [00:17:00] I'm in a, a productivity low. Why do you feel

[00:17:03] Steven Puri: that way? [00:17:05] Tell you that?

[00:17:06] Gerry Scullion: Well, I tell myself that, okay, because I hold myself to [00:17:10] such a high standard, like most people would say, my God, he produces an awful lot of [00:17:15] stuff. Some other people might say produces a load of crap. But anyway, that's a whole other [00:17:20] conversation. But I feel like I'm not producing or getting stuff done [00:17:25] at my, at my typical cadence.

[00:17:27] Gerry Scullion: Old Jerry would've been whipping me kind of [00:17:30] like, you know, new Jerry post, 10 years of therapy and [00:17:35] support and openness. I'm like, okay, well, I'm just, I'm just not very productive at the [00:17:40] moment. I'm just gonna, I know that I'm gonna come through this and I'll be back again. You, you

[00:17:44] Steven Puri: [00:17:45] did, I think score what, 35 on that busy idiot scale, right?

[00:17:49] Gerry Scullion: Oh, yes. [00:17:50] True, true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a pretty possibly wasting a little energy there. Just, you know,

[00:17:54] Steven Puri: I [00:17:55] don't

[00:17:55] Gerry Scullion: wanna

[00:17:55] Steven Puri: be your school marm, but

[00:17:57] Gerry Scullion: there is. Yeah. Um, J got, uh, [00:18:00] outlaw and Brad Marshall from, um, a previous episode earlier this year. That was a great [00:18:05] episode. Yeah, they're, they're great. Like both of them are, um, really fantastic.

[00:18:09] Gerry Scullion: That's a great [00:18:10] book. But, um, if you haven't listened to that, go back and listen to it, folks.

[00:18:14] Steven Puri: Busy idiots [00:18:15] brought to you,

[00:18:19] Gerry Scullion: but generally [00:18:20] speaking. In your world as a productivity, um, kind of [00:18:25] expert if you want. 'cause we're gonna talk about the, the Suka in in a minute. I've used it, [00:18:30] um, and I've enjoyed it as well. I wanna understand. I'm very grateful to

[00:18:34] Steven Puri: hear [00:18:35] that.

[00:18:35] Gerry Scullion: Well, I'll definitely come to that in a minute. It's definitely helped the fact that I've been using the [00:18:40] product.

[00:18:40] Gerry Scullion: But let me know, uh, around. Your thoughts [00:18:45] on when you're working within an organization, when you're working within, say you're working in a, in a [00:18:50] manic industry like the film industry, who dictates what [00:18:55] good productivity is. That's what I'm really interested in. Like what [00:19:00] role do you have to play in that, your own mindset, Hey,

[00:19:04] Steven Puri: I'm [00:19:05] passionate about that answer, so I'm gonna give it to you.

[00:19:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:19:09] Steven Puri: I believe [00:19:10] strongly. I have a really strong thesis. That we all have something [00:19:15] great inside, and the question of this lifetime is, are you going to get it [00:19:20] out or not?

[00:19:22] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:22] Steven Puri: So leaders, [00:19:25] great leaders are the ones that bring the right people into the organization. Like, [00:19:30] Hey man, Jerry, we're here. We're gonna invent cold fusion, we're [00:19:35] going to cure cancer, we're going to write the best romantic comedies.

[00:19:38] Steven Puri: We're gonna, whatever that thing [00:19:40] is, the leader expressed is, here's our mission. Here's how we [00:19:45] treat each other. Here's the culture, here's how our values are expressed through action. This is how [00:19:50] you're gonna treat your colleagues. You're gonna treat our customers, you're gonna treat our competitors, right?[00:19:55]

[00:19:55] Steven Puri: Mm-hmm. So if you bring the right people into that organization, when they go, yeah, man, mission, I'm in, I [00:20:00] absolutely wanna cure cancer. I work day and night on that, right? My dad died of lung cancer I'm in. Yeah. [00:20:05] And yes, this is your values align with mine. Then you as a leader, your, [00:20:10] your job. Is to give people the conditions.

[00:20:13] Steven Puri: So that great thing inside it [00:20:15] comes out. You lead the lab with the guy who goes, I figured [00:20:20] out why the DNA is doing this, you know, or I have a new twist on a [00:20:25] romantic comedy, or, this is the most amazing recipe. We should box this and [00:20:30] sell it across. So whatever that thing is like that I think fundamentally is you set the conditions [00:20:35] in which your people can do the great thing, which they're capable.

[00:20:39] Steven Puri: Yeah. [00:20:40] So I think that's a really important part of, I think that comes from leadership, [00:20:45] right?

[00:20:45] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:46] Steven Puri: It's finding the right pe, expressing what you're doing to attract the right people and [00:20:50] going, here are the conditions for you to go do that thing.

[00:20:53] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And [00:20:55] also, if you're looking for a new role, um, you can look at [00:21:00] the leaders and see how they're performing and what their mm-hmm.

[00:21:03] Gerry Scullion: Productivity is like. [00:21:05] Can I share a little story about. Uh, an experience that I had years and years ago [00:21:10] about a close call that I I had was big as long as you were

[00:21:14] Steven Puri: clothed in the [00:21:15] story. Yes.

[00:21:16] Gerry Scullion: A big consult begin. In [00:21:20] G and uh, I was interviewing, um, for them BCG [00:21:25] and, um, we were, well, it's not, you know, Bain [00:21:30] least I, I don't wanna get sued, I don't wanna, I can't name them bcg.

[00:21:33] Gerry Scullion: Anyway, and [00:21:35] first couple of interviews were cool, like, you know, it was very chill and um, you know, it came [00:21:40] around to signing a contract. And I, I looked at the partner who, who [00:21:45] was bringing me in, and I was like, first of all, why are, why are they calling meetings [00:21:50] at seven 30 in the morning? Okay. Right?

[00:21:52] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. I was like, okay, this, maybe they're being really [00:21:55] accommodating 'cause I know that I've got another gig and I have to be in for nine o'clock. And I was like, okay, cool. [00:22:00] But I noticed that the partner was, you know, look a little bit [00:22:05] more tired. The third interview. Mm-hmm. I said, just before I sign, I want to [00:22:10] know, um, what, what time you got home at last night from work.

[00:22:14] Gerry Scullion: [00:22:15] And there was silence. And they looked around. At each they go, why, why do you wanna know? And I go, 'cause I just wanna try and [00:22:20] understand really what, what it was like, what it is like this week in the office. [00:22:25] I said, well, I got home at 1130 last night. Mm-hmm. And I says, well, I know you live an hour from [00:22:30] here, so you got up at five.

[00:22:32] Gerry Scullion: I said, so you would've, because you, you'd mentioned he [00:22:35] trained. And he goes, yeah. And I go, is this a typical week or is this like an exception?

[00:22:39] Steven Puri: These [00:22:40] are good questions, Jerry. Okay.

[00:22:42] Gerry Scullion: He is this an exception and you could see the shift in the [00:22:45] energy literally in the room that I. You know, they were kind of going, why are you asking this?

[00:22:49] Gerry Scullion: I [00:22:50] goes, I just want to know what I'm getting into here. Like, actually, you know, you said a few things. Said [00:22:55] you're, you're, you're getting by in about five hours sleep a night. Is that right? Mm-hmm. And, [00:23:00] um, he was like, yeah, pretty much like I, I'll be in the office till maybe 10, 10 o'clock. And I said, you've got [00:23:05] kids?

[00:23:05] Gerry Scullion: I said, so you don't get to see them. So I was playing out my own kind of like existence, like I knew, [00:23:10] yeah. I have kids. Good questions. So I was like, actually, do you know what I'm, I'm gonna put a pause on [00:23:15] this. If the contract is so important, I said, lemme come back to you in a couple of days. And I walked [00:23:20] out on the contract and I said, look, I just don't think this is the right fit for me.[00:23:25]

[00:23:25] Gerry Scullion: Um, so that was a close call for me in my own career 'cause it probably would've set me off [00:23:30] in a completely different direction. Um, but I want to understand, you know, from [00:23:35] your own perspective. That productivity piece, um, and the [00:23:40] leadership stuff. If you are in an organization and you are being forced to work [00:23:45] those hours, what steps can people do to kind of [00:23:50] control their own destiny within that environment?

[00:23:53] Gerry Scullion: Because you're lucky, you are privileged. You got [00:23:55] to walk away from a massive role. You gotta set up a business. You've got equity, and you've [00:24:00] got investors and so forth. Not everyone has that opportunity. What do you think to people who [00:24:05] are in that situation that maybe, um, want to learn about, able to put some boundaries [00:24:10] around What's what,

[00:24:13] Steven Puri: uh.[00:24:15]

[00:24:15] Steven Puri: Lovely and very generous question. And by the way, I love that you conducted your [00:24:20] interview in the interview. That's That's pretty baller. Long time ago. [00:24:25] Long time ago. I'm glad you weren't like Mike. How many times a week do you [00:24:30] think about killing yourself? Just roughly? Yeah, exactly. [00:24:35] Uh, okay. So yes, if you are an [00:24:40] individual contributor.

[00:24:41] Steven Puri: Where there are people you, you have leadership, you have management, [00:24:45] and it's not like you are a small business owner where you kind of set your own hours, you set your own [00:24:50] pace things, right? Yeah. When there are those, you know, [00:24:55] structures put in place and you have to work within them, then I think the question [00:25:00] you ask yourself is, how well do I know [00:25:05] myself to make this work?

[00:25:07] Steven Puri: I'll give you one example with kind of a funny story. [00:25:10] There is a concept of chronotype, which I know you know what that is, but just to set the [00:25:15] table for anyone playing at home who's like, what is that? Chronotype is the simple concept. [00:25:20] There are times of day you're better at doing certain things than others.

[00:25:24] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:25:24] Steven Puri: and [00:25:25] I'll give you the first time I saw this in actual practice, which was, there's a screenwriter, [00:25:30] Ron Bass who's in the million dollar club, right? Best friend's wedding, rain man, like [00:25:35] tons of stuff in the eighties and nineties. He was famous for not talking to his family in the morning. [00:25:40] Wouldn't talk, not a word.

[00:25:42] Steven Puri: He's like, I'm not the dad who's gonna be like, Hey, who wants [00:25:45] pancakes? You know, like, who did their homework? He's like, if I talk to you, [00:25:50] I can't hear my character's voices in my head anymore, so I have to write that [00:25:55] in the morning. So you know, after nine I'm there. We'll do whatever you want to do, but [00:26:00] just count me out.

[00:26:02] Steven Puri: Yeah. That was his extreme awareness of chronotype, which he had [00:26:05] developed over time. He's an attorney, by the way, who turned screenwriter. He [00:26:10] understood he had a pocket of time in the morning, so he would get up sometimes 3, 4, 5 in the morning to [00:26:15] write words, dialogue, and he did that so [00:26:20] well. You know, a-list actors like Julia Roberts.

[00:26:22] Steven Puri: Tom Dustin, like they would look [00:26:25] at a stack of scripts on the desk and say, these are the words I want to say, which is very, very hard because they have everything being [00:26:30] offered to them, right? Yeah. So he was that good at it. But he knew in the afternoon he could do collaborative stuff. Like, Jerry, let's figure [00:26:35] out the third act.

[00:26:35] Steven Puri: It's not working right? Let's brainstorm some ideas, right? Or do studio notes or things like [00:26:40] that. So that concept of chronotype is one thing that you can [00:26:45] come to understand by yourself. Cost nothing. You don't need anybody's app [00:26:50] book, you know, masterclass. You can simply say, [00:26:55] you know what? I know that these are the hours in which I'm going to be working, and there are times when I'm gonna be [00:27:00] better at returning emails and putting in my expense report and things, you know, returning [00:27:05] my slacks or my team's messages.

[00:27:06] Steven Puri: And there are other times when I have to do the deep work that. [00:27:10] Turns heads in the, in the staff meeting when people are like, yeah, what Jerry said, we should do that. Like [00:27:15] right now. Right. That's the work that advances your career. No one gets a medal for returning emails [00:27:20] right in M zero. Thanks. So that is one concept.

[00:27:24] Steven Puri: You can do it [00:27:25] with a pencil and piece of paper, just log for a week or two [00:27:30] morning and afternoon. Like what did you work on? Not minute by minute, like eight to 11. I worked on blog [00:27:35] posts or you know, three to five I coded or, and how did you feel? Yeah. When you look at that, [00:27:40] after five to 10 days, you'll see the patterns and you'll go, man, I should always be coding [00:27:45] in the morning.

[00:27:45] Steven Puri: I'm more clear, whereas I should be doing, you know, this sort of shallow work as Cal Newport would [00:27:50] say, right after lunch, I'm always kind of in a carbo haze and I can do [00:27:55] low quality kind of, you know, easy things. Then. Yeah. So that is one way to start to [00:28:00] manage your day. Say, if this is the expectation of how I'm working, then how do you apportion that now?[00:28:05]

[00:28:06] Steven Puri: There is the concept of flow states, which, yeah, I don't know if [00:28:10] I've heard an epi. Have you, you done a full episode on flow states? Because I don't know if I've heard it. Not really.

[00:28:14] Gerry Scullion: We've, we've [00:28:15]

[00:28:15] Steven Puri: touched on it. Okay. So maybe let's talk about that for a moment, because this is [00:28:20] a really big component of deep work, as Kyle would say, which is, um, [00:28:25] and again, just to set the table for those driving who are like, I've heard about it, but what is it exactly?[00:28:30]

[00:28:30] Steven Puri: Because people call it being in the zone. People call it the genius zone, like lots of things, right?

[00:28:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:28:35]

[00:28:35] Steven Puri: Hungarian American psychologist, Miha Hai had a [00:28:40] thesis. He's like, high performers in these disparate fields [00:28:45] seem to describe the concentrated states they get into in very similar ways. The states where they [00:28:50] do the work that makes 'em famous, whether it is Michael Jordan playing basketball, Picasso painting, [00:28:55] Guernica, you know, some guy inventing whatever, you know.

[00:28:58] Steven Puri: I wanna understand that. So [00:29:00] like Prometheus, he wanted to go up, find fire on Mount Olympus, bring it down to the rest of us. At the end of his [00:29:05] exploration, he wrote a book called Flow. Yeah, it is the seminal work [00:29:10] on this. It is why it's called a Flow State. And he said, I think this is the most beautiful [00:29:15] metaphor I can use from what I found, which is we are all on the water paddling [00:29:20] forward.

[00:29:21] Steven Puri: But if you align your boat with the current. It carries you, it [00:29:25] magnifies your efforts. And that's what it seems like these people know how to do to get into a state where the [00:29:30] river carries you forward.

[00:29:31] Gerry Scullion: Okay?

[00:29:32] Steven Puri: And it is an amazing work. And now [00:29:35] we get to benefit from standing on his shoulders and a lot of other people who have built upon this, like, you know, Stephen [00:29:40] Kotler's of the world and you know, near and all these people.

[00:29:42] Steven Puri: Right? So now that we've set the table a bit, [00:29:45] why is that important?

[00:29:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:29:47] Steven Puri: because if you are an individual contributor. [00:29:50] Maybe you're a graphic designer, maybe you're a copywriter, maybe you're an engineer, [00:29:55] software engineer or something, or hardware engineer, and there is a portion of your career [00:30:00] advancement that is doing that deep work that causes people to turn heads and go, oh my God, you're the one who wrote [00:30:05] that research paper on so-and-so, right?

[00:30:07] Steven Puri: Yeah. And he [00:30:10] laid out, mihi, laid out very clear conditions, [00:30:15] precedent to help you get into that state. A lot of, you know, the, the platform I built. He's built on [00:30:20] his book to say, oh, here's stuff that helps you get into that. It does take you 15 to [00:30:25] 23 minutes research shows to drop in. When you start to say, I'm going to do this.

[00:30:29] Steven Puri: You [00:30:30] don't just like sit down, you're in a flow state and if you get interrupted, it takes you another 15 to 23 [00:30:35] minutes to get back into that place where the world falls away. Time falls away, [00:30:40] distractions, you're just in it doing great work. Right? Yeah. So. If you can find those [00:30:45] periods in your day when you actually block your calendar for a meeting with yourself.[00:30:50]

[00:30:50] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:30:51] Steven Puri: that's great. Because if your calendar is every hour on the hour, some 30 [00:30:55] minute Zoom, or you know, teams meeting or Google meet. You're never gonna get into flow. [00:31:00] You're going to be meeting shallow work, meeting shallow work, meeting shallow work, and your career will go sideways [00:31:05] and you'll be frustrated because you're not doing anything meaningful.

[00:31:07] Steven Puri: So this is just two ideas of [00:31:10] understanding your chronotype and saying, okay, if I want to do the great work that advances me, that advances my team, [00:31:15] let me find that block of an hour or two each day and just keep it sacred. [00:31:20]

[00:31:21] Gerry Scullion: The conditions, I'd love to know about your own conditions mm-hmm. For [00:31:25] enabling the flow state.

[00:31:26] Gerry Scullion: Um, it's different for everybody, so, um, we can't [00:31:30] lift and shift what Steven is talking about here and apply it. Maybe you can, but like, in my [00:31:35] scenario, it might be a little bit different, but let's talk about enabling the conditions. It's not [00:31:40] about Rose, uh, you know, paddles on the ground and, and. Candles here.

[00:31:44] Gerry Scullion: [00:31:45] Anyone who's listening, I'd love to understand what your conditions are to enter the flow state to become more. [00:31:50] Let

[00:31:50] Steven Puri: me, uh, let me give you two to begin with. And there are a number of conditions precedent, but these [00:31:55] are both ones that have interesting sort of stories behind them, right? Yeah.

[00:31:59] Gerry Scullion: Also, do [00:32:00] you find that out?

[00:32:01] Gerry Scullion: How do you find your conditions?

[00:32:02] Steven Puri: Well, largely through [00:32:05] determination, experimentation, you know, if you start by saying, I'm going to take this [00:32:10] time tomorrow. It has to be an hour or two. It's not 15 minute chunks. Right? [00:32:15] Yeah. In that time, I have a task I'm going to do, let me see what I can [00:32:20] do to create the conditions to be in flow.

[00:32:21] Steven Puri: So actually, let me preface this with some things that [00:32:25] Mihi wrote. Mihi said, it seems that even for these high performers to do [00:32:30] amazing things, a couple things have to be true. They have to believe the thing they're doing is meaningful. [00:32:35] You know, it's not stapling papers or shuffling stuff around or returning.

[00:32:39] Steven Puri: Random emails. [00:32:40] It has to be like, no, this is actually, if I do this right, this is going to affect something somewhere. Right? [00:32:45] Yeah. He said, you have to have skills that apply. So it is not Michael Jordan painting. [00:32:50] It's not Picasso trying to throw basketball, and if you're doing something where your skills [00:32:55] apply, it has to be challenging.

[00:32:57] Steven Puri: So to extend that metaphor, it's not Michael Jordan [00:33:00] playing an exhibition game at his kid's high school. You know what I mean? You're not in Flo. Yeah. Flo is Michael [00:33:05] in the NBA Flo is Picasso standing back from Guernica and going. Is [00:33:10] this what I had in my head? Is this what I'm trying to do? And he said, you also need to have some feedback.[00:33:15]

[00:33:15] Steven Puri: It's very hard to be in flow if you just feel like you're pouring energy into a black box with no [00:33:20] idea if it's good or bad. You have to be able to stand back, look at the scoreboard, or, you know, [00:33:25] run your, you know, compile your code and see if it runs, you know? Um, [00:33:30] that, that sort of sense. So these are some of the conditions, and I, this is a short podcast, so I, I don't want to [00:33:35] go too deeply in all this, but these are some of the things that he wrote about.

[00:33:38] Steven Puri: So now [00:33:40] you asked me how do I experiment and how do people experiment and say like, what are the [00:33:45] things that help me get there? Sure. One thing a lot of people have researched is [00:33:50] music, and it speaks to exactly what you said, where it's like, you know [00:33:55] what? I found my own path. I may not be the mainstream. I [00:34:00] discovered this as we were building, you know, the Suka app, which is a Flow State app, straight up.[00:34:05]

[00:34:05] Steven Puri: I don't usually call it that 'cause flow state. Some people don't know what it is. I call it a focus app. It [00:34:10] is founded on the principles of flow, right? Music is a big one where [00:34:15] for most people, research shows 60 to [00:34:20] 90 beats per minute. Music that's at that speed. That is non-vocal, you know, [00:34:25] ambient, melodic music, certain key signatures like that seems to help them get into that [00:34:30] concentrated state where the clock falls away.

[00:34:32] Steven Puri: Distractions are blocked. You're just in it, right?

[00:34:34] Gerry Scullion: [00:34:35] Yeah.

[00:34:35] Steven Puri: So I happen to have a bunch of friends who are film composers. With time on their [00:34:40] hands, right? Yeah. So it's like, Hey man, here's the research sort of points to like this [00:34:45] kind of stuff. Could you compose stuff? So we have like a thousand hours of this music?

[00:34:47] Steven Puri: And I thought, okay, we got that covered. [00:34:50] It is true in doing that. 'cause I speak to a lot of our members. I love our membership. [00:34:55] There are some people who are like, Hey man, I just have to listen to blank nineties [00:35:00] gangster rap, or like, heavy metal or some, or, you know, classical music or something. Like, that's the only way I [00:35:05] get there.

[00:35:05] Steven Puri: So I can't just do it with like lo-fi music or, you know, this kind of ambient sound or trance [00:35:10] or in the course of doing that. You know, where I had to say, Hey, we're not really [00:35:15] gonna offer playlists that are like nineties Gangster Rapids. Not exactly our, our vibe, but you [00:35:20] know, you can hook up your Spotify or whatever.

[00:35:22] Steven Puri: Something that I discovered that I didn't [00:35:25] see coming. A friend up in Marin who does the [00:35:30] sound for the Lucas film game, basically Star Wars games. Mm-hmm. He was traveling, I think it was his [00:35:35] son's high school. Uh, like graduation gift. Uh, the family went to Nepal. [00:35:40] And he came back and said, Steven, while I was there in Capmandu one day, there [00:35:45] was this rain and it was this lush, delicious, just like pounding rain, [00:35:50] and I had my audio equipment there, so I recorded it.

[00:35:53] Steven Puri: Do you want it? [00:35:55] That could be kind of cool. So not knowing what would happen, threw it up as a [00:36:00] playlist, just called it Himalayan Dream Rain. Two hours of just rain coming down. That's all. There was no [00:36:05] magic. There was no music, there's no, it was just rain. Yeah, it's our third most popular playlist.

[00:36:09] Gerry Scullion: [00:36:10] Easily, I'd say I would listen to it.

[00:36:12] Steven Puri: Yeah. And then from that we experimented. We're like, [00:36:15] well, what about the sound of, uh, a, a stream in Japan? And then we did [00:36:20] a lake in, uh, Canada, near my partner, this place called Emerald Lake. Well, you hear like a [00:36:25] little bit of birds. I don't know if you're a bird guy, you bring me a wood kind of bird. It is.

[00:36:28] Steven Puri: But that [00:36:30] and. They become incredibly popular. And I was like, wow. I didn't, had not read a lot of research on like [00:36:35] nature sounds, but when I talk to the people listening, they're like, it evokes this thing for me in my head where [00:36:40] I used to when I was a child, da da da, you know, go read at my parents' house, or that sort of thing.

[00:36:44] Steven Puri: And I was [00:36:45] like, oh, wow. That's a really interesting association that I don't think a lot of people have figured out, [00:36:50] including, and this is when we were running during the pandemic, people asked [00:36:55] about coffee shops.

[00:36:57] Steven Puri: We threw up a playlist that is simply two hours. [00:37:00] Of a coffee shop in

[00:37:01] Steven Puri: Vienna, Austria, that's all it [00:37:05] is.

[00:37:05] Steven Puri: You hear, you know, the expression, you know, hear a little coffee cups clanking. [00:37:10] And people who work at home became really happy with this sense [00:37:15] of, oh, it's, it gives me a feeling of being around people without the distraction of being around people, you know? Yeah. [00:37:20] So that was one of the discoveries I made of, it's like how important music is to create this oral, [00:37:25] oral au oral environment.

[00:37:27] Steven Puri: Yeah. Around you. Um, one of the things, and [00:37:30] there's a second one I wanna throw in there. I'll make it really short. Go ahead. Which is also mental space.

[00:37:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:34] Steven Puri: [00:37:35] How space does affect us mentally, and I saw this when I was, uh, back working [00:37:40] with Roland and Dean. They would always go right down at this, uh, rental villa in Puerto of our [00:37:45] to Mexico.

[00:37:46] Steven Puri: And when they were going off to the right, the next one, it was rented. It was [00:37:50] so important. Roland, he bought the villa so they could go down there and write. They came [00:37:55] back six weeks later with the script for Independence Day, which became the third highest group of grossing movie in history. [00:38:00] Right? Yeah.

[00:38:00] Steven Puri: But it was that important to them that their mental space was, we're in the zone, we go there. [00:38:05] Same thing with Alice Kurtzman, Bob Orey, when I was at Dreamworks with them. Like these are the guys who wrote Transformers one and [00:38:10] two and Star Trek, 11 and Fringe and Hawaii, five Oh and Eagle Eye, and the proposal.

[00:38:14] Steven Puri: [00:38:15] Just tons, tons of stuff, right? They would rent a room at a hotel, the [00:38:20] Universal Hilton, across the street from Dreamworks, from the universal lot. Not a glamorous property, [00:38:25] but I realized for them it evoked the thing of dorm room because they had met back in school [00:38:30] and I think their first scripts were probably written, sitting on the edge of the bed, one person at the little desk in the [00:38:35] room, and that's when they had to buckle down and write like transformers.

[00:38:37] Steven Puri: Two for God knows how many million dollars. Yeah. [00:38:40] They weren't in part of ata, but it was that mental thing of like, once they got in there, they were [00:38:45] back to being those scrappy writers who had to prove themselves and get this done. So yeah, those are two [00:38:50] like interesting things I've noticed about getting into flow.

[00:38:53] Steven Puri: Um, both of which you don't really need anyone's app, [00:38:55] including mine. You can just sort of, you can do it, know yourself.

[00:38:59] Gerry Scullion: One of the [00:39:00] things, uh, again, I'm, I'm playing this. This dev was advocate of, of somebody who's working [00:39:05] in an organization and the first of all offices may not be [00:39:10] designed to encourage this.

[00:39:11] Gerry Scullion: Okay. This is an important factor to call out. Yeah. Like if you're working in hot desk [00:39:15] scenarios where people are coming and going in front of you. Again, some people might thrive in that [00:39:20] environment, but what I used to find, um, when I'm doing thinking and knowledge work mm-hmm. [00:39:25] Um, I would have this pressure.

[00:39:27] Gerry Scullion: Uh, start to building behind me that [00:39:30] someone was going to interrupt me. It was in an uncontrolled environment, and I had [00:39:35] headphones, but you have headphones. I had headphones. Headphones.

[00:39:37] Steven Puri: A great way to tell people, don't talk to me.

[00:39:39] Gerry Scullion: I know. It, [00:39:40] it, it's, it's more of a social cue. And then Luke, who I used to work with in Australia as well, [00:39:45] had this idea of putting a red flag up on, on his, on his computer, right?[00:39:50]

[00:39:50] Gerry Scullion: Kibo people were like, no, you can't do that. That's, that's too, too rude. And I was like, well, [00:39:55] is it really? I said, because we're being paid to do a job. You love what we do. [00:40:00] Um, but I, to find that was a big thing when I was in an [00:40:05] organization that. I couldn't help myself sometimes and tell people just to [00:40:10] piss off when they would come up and they break that flow, they would break that stage [00:40:15] because it, it is hard enough to get back into it.

[00:40:18] Gerry Scullion: Uh, and that [00:40:20] breaking of it is, is really difficult or is really difficult to get back into [00:40:25] now. What can people do if they're in that office environment? Like, well, what have you [00:40:30] heard? Because I know you've got 34,000, uh, the

[00:40:33] Steven Puri: thing you're [00:40:35] doing right now. Like I'm what you just talked about, you have beautiful, those who are, you know, listening in the [00:40:40] car.

[00:40:40] Steven Puri: I can't see this, but Jerry is great. Headphones on is amazing. What a [00:40:45] cue That is what you just said. Like that is a great way to just be like, you know what? I am [00:40:50] inside my head right now doing the things that I'm doing that are not like at a whiteboard with 10 people [00:40:55] shouting out ideas. That's a different thing without headphones.

[00:40:57] Steven Puri: Yeah. So it is the most obvious cue [00:41:00] to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, because you're right, those. Being in cubicles or being in open [00:41:05] office spaces, which are so popular and hot desk and all that. Super distracting. Yeah. [00:41:10] Yeah. So

[00:41:10] Gerry Scullion: that's a great one. It it is. Like, I know my, my wife works for Google [00:41:15] and um, I'm pretty sure everyone in their department we're all given noise canceling [00:41:20] headphones.

[00:41:20] Gerry Scullion: Right. I was like, well, that's great, but why don't they just. Design an office that [00:41:25] allows for the different ways of working or different styles. Oh, you radical

[00:41:28] Steven Puri: thinker. You,

[00:41:29] Gerry Scullion: um, [00:41:30] you know, what are you seeing out there with, with organizations that, 'cause [00:41:35] we're not talking about stuff that is, uh, not in the mainstream.

[00:41:38] Gerry Scullion: Like, a lot of people will know this stuff, [00:41:40] but yet it's still feels like organizations don't wanna hear this stuff. [00:41:45] They don't want to enable more, which is crazy when you think about it because. The [00:41:50] productivity and the benefits are there. Mm-hmm. Why aren't organizations [00:41:55] jumping into this and creating more offices that [00:42:00] allow for cocooned working and cocooned thinking, like, what's holding this back?

[00:42:04] Steven Puri: [00:42:05] Okay. So there are a couple of pieces to that answer. [00:42:10] One piece is yes, LLMs. Which [00:42:15] people generally conflate with AI in general is called LLMs ai. Right? But [00:42:20] large language models are simply Google Auto Complete on steroids. [00:42:25] That's what they are. They're just simply saying, Hey, can I guess what the next word or idea is that you're gonna [00:42:30] want?

[00:42:31] Steven Puri: The same way, you know, Google Auto Complete is like, oh, you're typing this word. Probably the next [00:42:35] character is this. Right?

[00:42:36] Steven Puri: Yeah.

[00:42:36] Steven Puri: So the jobs that do rely upon [00:42:40] that kind of like road pattern matching are going to be gone. So [00:42:45] that's a large set of the jobs in the job market today. [00:42:50] Right? So what does that leave?

[00:42:52] Steven Puri: Because as much as people [00:42:55] feel like it's magic, this machine is thinking it, the LM is not actually thinking it is just [00:43:00] pattern matching. It's doing probabilistic. Hey, you wrote. The weather outside looks and it's [00:43:05] like, well, 62% chance, the next word is rainy. Let me try it out and see if Jerry likes rainy.

[00:43:09] Steven Puri: Oh, he didn't like [00:43:10] rainy. I'll, I'll try sunny. You know, they, it is just probability. So the jobs that [00:43:15] aren't like that, where it is original thought

[00:43:19] Gerry Scullion: mm-hmm.

[00:43:19] Steven Puri: [00:43:20] Those kind of jobs for at least the, [00:43:25] the near term. Are safer than the jobs where it's like, Hey man, just crank out more of this. There's a [00:43:30] great pattern, you can match it, but I can get the machine to match it for free, so you'll be gone soon.

[00:43:33] Steven Puri: Right. So [00:43:35] that said, those kind of jobs, which you refer to the term knowledge [00:43:40] work, right? Yeah. Those are ones where to do that kind of [00:43:45] knowledge work. You do need time to do it like a block of time. You [00:43:50] can't do it 17 minutes in between Zooms. Yeah. If you are leader, [00:43:55] if you are an IC and you are creating these novel things, [00:44:00] your leadership ultimately if, if they're decent and if they're not decent, get to [00:44:05] another company, they're going to recognize, wow, the things that really help our company move forward [00:44:10] come from these practices.

[00:44:11] Steven Puri: Sure. And you can be vocal about them to say, Hey guys, you know what I found? [00:44:15] Yeah, that thing we all loved last week. The way I did it was I blocked out an hour in the [00:44:20] morning. If you notice, no one can book my calendar eight to 9:00 AM or whatever time, right? Do you wanna [00:44:25] all try that? Maybe we could try together to produce these great ideas if we agree like [00:44:30] eight to 9:00 AM or whatever time we agree upon is sacred.

[00:44:33] Steven Puri: So no one's gonna book Zooms. Then we're [00:44:35] not gonna slack each other like, Hey Jerry, can you send me the TPS report right now and get me outta flow. [00:44:40] Wait until nine. Well, if you do slack me, just assume I won't see it until nine. [00:44:45]

[00:44:45] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:44:45] Steven Puri: And if ultimately leadership is like, Hey, how do we win? As opposed to how do we [00:44:50] enforce discipline upon dao?

[00:44:51] Steven Puri: Right? Then leadership will recognize that because [00:44:55] that's gonna differentiate the companies going forward. Because everyone by the way, is going to have L LMS [00:45:00] at zero cost. It's a commodity business. It'll be like buying electricity. It'll be like [00:45:05] buying internet service. It's not like it's gonna be an expensive thing.

[00:45:08] Steven Puri: Yeah. So it kind of. [00:45:10] Levels, the playing field for that kind of work. Does that make

[00:45:12] Gerry Scullion: sense? Yeah, absolutely. [00:45:15] I'd love to get your thoughts, um, a little bit more on distractions and [00:45:20] notifications working crazy work. Well,

[00:45:23] Steven Puri: for those who haven't heard, your episode [00:45:25] is busy, is busy, I know. Yes.

[00:45:27] Gerry Scullion: But, but generally the cost of to breaking that flow [00:45:30] state and generally, one, one of my most common, um, [00:45:35] peeves is, uh, within notification worlds, there's certain.

[00:45:39] Gerry Scullion: People in [00:45:40] my life that like, they, they don't have any restrictions. You know, the importance of, you know, [00:45:45] childcare and, um, spouses and partners and so forth. Yeah. Um, [00:45:50] they tend to be the most common. Distractors. Okay. Uhhuh. So the most important [00:45:55] stuff, and I noticed in, um. In Thes app, one of the things that you can do [00:46:00] is when you're about to try and get into that flow state, you, you scan a QR code and [00:46:05] it kills the notifications on your phone until you've completed your task.

[00:46:08] Gerry Scullion: And I love it. [00:46:10] If people don't have Thes app, um, what advice do you [00:46:15] have to them on being able to manage those? Uh. Different priorities of [00:46:20] notifications. What's important, what's not important?

[00:46:21] Steven Puri: Oh, Jerry, that is like throwing a [00:46:25] slow ball right down across the home plate. Like I couldn't wait to hit this ball.

[00:46:29] Steven Puri: [00:46:30] Right. Were speaking, speaking to my heart. Sorry.

[00:46:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I want to hear it. [00:46:35]

[00:46:35] Steven Puri: So I'm gonna be on my soapbox for a moment. Anyone at home was like, dude, [00:46:40] this guy is so passionate. Like he needs to like have a beer. Yes. This is that part [00:46:45] of the podcast. So just like dig in. [00:46:50] Like Mihi had a very strong thesis about, Hey man, these high performers have this way of doing this [00:46:55] thing.

[00:46:55] Steven Puri: I'm gonna find out what it is. I have a very strong thesis, which is, you know, we have this great [00:47:00] thing inside us, and how do we unlock it? Or how do the, our leadership give us the [00:47:05] conditions to unlock it? Right? So here's

[00:47:07] Steven Puri: the deal. The trillion [00:47:10] dollar companies, their business model is steal your [00:47:15] life, period.

[00:47:16] Steven Puri: Full stop.

[00:47:18] Steven Puri: And they are not embarrassed [00:47:20] about it anymore. This is not like five, 10 years ago. It is in their S ones, it's in their quarterly reports. [00:47:25] They are very clear going, Hey man, the more people's lives we can steal, the better our [00:47:30] performance will be for our shareholders. So it is our responsibility to the shareholders, to, to the [00:47:35] stakeholders, to steal everyone's life all the time.

[00:47:38] Steven Puri: And guess what, when you're a [00:47:40] trillion dollar company, you have the money. To hire [00:47:45] the best behavioral psychologists and put them on staff, the best ui ux [00:47:50] designers, the best engineers with the sole goal of saying [00:47:55] steal more, and they're really, really, really [00:48:00] good. Yeah. So on that tug of war for your life, [00:48:05] on one side there are trillion dollar companies with the smartest people.

[00:48:09] Steven Puri: On the other side of [00:48:10] that rope is you.

[00:48:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:48:14] Steven Puri: How is that [00:48:15] fair?

[00:48:17] Steven Puri: Because I don't think you or I, or anyone listening wants to [00:48:20] be that old girl or guy on the sofa. It's still scrolling and double tapping being like, [00:48:25] well, I could have been somebody. I, I had that idea. I could have written that book. Oh, yeah. I, I could have started that [00:48:30] company.

[00:48:30] Steven Puri: Yeah. But I just, you know, I was busy with other things. Yeah. No one wants to be that person. No one wants to [00:48:35] be around that person. So it begins with intention. [00:48:40] And again, you don't need anybody's app for this, mine or anybody's. [00:48:45] You wake up in the morning, you go, what is it I need to do [00:48:50] today to move towards releasing the great thing inside me?

[00:48:54] Steven Puri: [00:48:55] Write that. Write, excuse me, I was gonna curse. Write that thing down.

[00:48:58] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:48:59] Steven Puri: stick it on [00:49:00] a index card or a piece of paper, or post-it, put it right in front of you all day [00:49:05] long. This is the thing I need to do to move my life forward. [00:49:10] Period. There are tools that will help you, which as you know, I've invested my [00:49:15] life in building one.

[00:49:16] Steven Puri: Mm-hmm. It's not the only one. There are beautiful tools made by other people. [00:49:20] What I care about is that you do something with your life, not that you use my tool.

[00:49:24] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:49:25] So on your own phone, and I'm getting [00:49:30] closer to the busy Idiots episode here. What, what apps do you absolutely [00:49:35] not have a name and shame.

[00:49:38] Steven Puri: Um, I will tell you, [00:49:40] I have almost everything on my phone because I try as soon as [00:49:45] I hear about a distraction, to understand it,

[00:49:48] Gerry Scullion: okay.

[00:49:48] Steven Puri: The ones that stick with [00:49:50] me, the ones that really like the slippery slope where I'm like, oh man, I lost half an hour. TikTok is [00:49:55] probably the worst. Yeah, YouTube is probably number two.

[00:49:59] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:49:59] Steven Puri: [00:50:00] Not, not a big Facebook, Twitter, X Instagram person. [00:50:05] Um, it's, uh. It is amazing how well those [00:50:10] two understand what hooks me, which can be as bizarre as, Hey man, the [00:50:15] algorithm knows that you watched a video on. This weird react code thing and [00:50:20] how to use it. But we're gonna suggest to you this interesting video on how the A three 80 electronic [00:50:25] system works.

[00:50:25] Steven Puri: And I'm like, I love stuff like that. Okay, I'll watch that for eight minutes. You know, [00:50:30] and then you're gone and it's just, they get you. Absolutely. So that's a lot of what I [00:50:35] do, you know, with, with my company. Just say, what can we do? So when you [00:50:40] pick up your phone, you have a smart assistant just goes, Hey Jerry, like, is your phone helping you [00:50:45] get where you need to go?

[00:50:46] Steven Puri: Yeah. And then you have, you have that one second of who do I want to be? [00:50:50] So let's talk about, I not telling you the word I need. Choose.

[00:50:53] Gerry Scullion: Let, let's talk about the suka, [00:50:55] um, and where you're at with it now, at the moment. Um, [00:51:00] what, why should people try it?

[00:51:04] Steven Puri: Um, [00:51:05] people should not try it. You know, it is, it is something where.[00:51:10]

[00:51:11] Steven Puri: People

[00:51:12] Steven Puri: first need to decide if they want to do something [00:51:15] with their life. You know, uh, my app, [00:51:20] you know, freedom Time, doctor, like all these things, these are not gonna solve your problem. [00:51:25] These are the tools. When you decide the problem needs to be solved and you're like, I am [00:51:30] sick of this, I'm sick. This rut that I'm in, and I'll [00:51:35] tell you, I named my company this weird name.

[00:51:36] Steven Puri: People at home are probably like, how do you spell Suka? What does it mean? Why do you name it [00:51:40] that? Right? Yeah. This will tell you everything you need to know. Laura, I met [00:51:45] in New York in yoga. I married the girl on the mat to my left, right? [00:51:50] Yoga's a part of our daily life. It's a beautiful, physical, spiritual one hour where [00:51:55] I get to clear my head and feel great.

[00:51:56] Steven Puri: Right? So when we. Got married, we went [00:52:00] to Bali for our honeymoon, which I'm very grateful. I'm at a point in my life where I can just do stuff like that and it's a wonderful [00:52:05] place. Just do yoga, hang out on the beach and be together for 10 days.

[00:52:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:52:08] Steven Puri: We had a working [00:52:10] version of what became Suka with a working title, and I said to Lori, you know what?

[00:52:14] Steven Puri: The [00:52:15] next 10 days, no one in the company is gonna bug me. They know I'm on my honeymoon. I wonder [00:52:20] if in this period of calm, like the name I've been craving will come to me the way like Amazon [00:52:25] is not called like bookstore. Nike's not like shoe seller. You like, I wanna do [00:52:30] something that's not like Flow state app or distraction blocker.

[00:52:32] Steven Puri: You know, like that sort of thing. And she said, [00:52:35] you know, I wish that for you.

[00:52:35] Steven Puri: You know,

[00:52:36] Steven Puri: hopefully in 10 days the universe speaks to you, you know, the Muses sing, whatever. [00:52:40]

[00:52:40] Steven Puri: Yeah.

[00:52:40] Steven Puri: We got there and I said, I think what would seed my imagination is. If [00:52:45] I talk to maybe two or three of our current members today, just for five minutes and go, what's your favorite thing?

[00:52:49] Steven Puri: Maybe that'll [00:52:50] bubble up something. She's like, go for it. I'm gonna the pool. You my friend, I'll see you at dinner. [00:52:55] So I spoke to three uh people who in the group chat said, yeah, I'll talk to you for a minute, minute. I [00:53:00] asked 'em the same question. I was like, what's your favorite feature? Do you love that smart assistant that keeps you off the websites and the [00:53:05] phone?

[00:53:05] Steven Puri: Do you have the music? Do you have the pomodora timer deal, the task? What is it? Right? And the [00:53:10] third guy who's still a member, I see him in there. We did our five or 10 [00:53:15] minutes, and I was like, thank you so much for your time. I wanna be respectful. We said, you know, five or 10 minutes, let's go. And he [00:53:20] said, Steven, you asked the wrong questions.

[00:53:24] Steven Puri: I was like, okay, fair [00:53:25] enough. What was the right question? He's like, you should have asked me why I pay you. I'm like, dude, we, we [00:53:30] charge like 30 cents a day. I don't collect a salary for this. I do this because I think the world needs it. And like, [00:53:35] okay, but I'll take the bait. Why? Why do you pay me? He said.[00:53:40]

[00:53:40] Steven Puri: The past year or two, I find I have two kinds of days. [00:53:45] At three o'clock I'm playing with my kids. They're two and four. At [00:53:50] six o'clock I'm down on myself. Where did the day go? I suck. I didn't do the [00:53:55] big thing I needed to do today. And he said, I realized the differences in the morning. And I open your app [00:54:00] and run it in the background.

[00:54:02] Steven Puri: I pay you because my kids are not gonna be [00:54:05] two and four forever. Ah,

[00:54:07] Steven Puri: and I

[00:54:08] Steven Puri: like. [00:54:10] Wow. So I go to dinner with Laura. I'm like, I spoke to this dude today who's more articulate about [00:54:15] what I'm doing than I am. This is what he said. And she was like, yeah, that, that's really good. [00:54:20] And we're going to bed. And she's brushing her teeth, we're brushing her little teeth in her little bathrobes.[00:54:25]

[00:54:25] Steven Puri: And she looked at me, she goes, you know, you wanted the university to speak to you. It did through that, through that guy. [00:54:30] That's, you know, in yoga we hear all these Sanskrit terms like prana for [00:54:35] your life force and you know, karma and dharma. She's like, that's Suka. [00:54:40] He describes you. That feeling of when you're in your lane doing the thing you're meant to do and you're good at [00:54:45] it, you can do it with ease.

[00:54:48] Steven Puri: That guy wants to be in control of his life, [00:54:50] and that's what you give him. She's like, that's what you should call your company, the Suka company. And I bought it from my phone. I [00:54:55] checked the website. It was available. I bought it for $14 that night from bed, and that's why we [00:55:00] called this because that is ultimately what I want, is the people who have an intention and go, you know what?

[00:55:04] Steven Puri: I [00:55:05] want to do that thing. I wanna be in control of my life. Yeah, I don't wanna give it up to Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk [00:55:10] or you know, Evan Spiegel or any of these guys.

[00:55:12] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:14] Gerry Scullion: Great. I. [00:55:15] Um,

[00:55:17] Steven Puri: Steven, look, I know we've been talking a lot. I know you gotta [00:55:20] wrap up.

[00:55:20] Gerry Scullion: No, no, no. It's, I got my

[00:55:22] Steven Puri: soapbox.

[00:55:23] Gerry Scullion: It's not, it's not talking a [00:55:25] lot like, it's all, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm processing an awful lot of what you've spoken, uh, to me about, [00:55:30] like, you know, so, and I really, really enjoyed it.

[00:55:32] Gerry Scullion: Um, I do wrap up every [00:55:35] episode on this is a CD by thanking people for their vulnerability and their space and their time and their [00:55:40] energy. You know, we've spoken a couple of times, so, um, you know, giving me that time was, was really, um, [00:55:45] powerful as well. If people wanna reach out to you, um, what's the best [00:55:50] way for people to do that?

[00:55:51] Gerry Scullion: And I know you've given a discount as well for, um, [00:55:55] Suka to try it. Like, so I'll put it into,

[00:55:56] Steven Puri: yeah. I think, uh, two things. [00:56:00] If there's any reference that I've made that someone wants to know more about, it does not have to be [00:56:05] about anything that I work on. Yeah. Hey man, Cal Newport, you talked about or near, who's near and [00:56:10] what's this time blocking or whatever.

[00:56:11] Steven Puri: My email address is very public. It is Steven at [00:56:15] the suka, T-H-E-S-U-K-H a.co for the Suka company. [00:56:20] You are welcome to drive me an email and go, Hey man, who's Cal Newport? Or what should I read? I will send you back [00:56:25] some link that hopefully answers your question. I'll not write you back [00:56:30] 19 paragraphs about the story of my life because I don't have time, and nor do you want to read it.

[00:56:34] Steven Puri: Yeah, [00:56:35] so I do get back to all my emails in 24 hours if I'm not sick or traveling, so that is [00:56:40] a free open invitation if someone wants to learn more, like I've [00:56:45] done the research, I've done the reading, and I'm happy to share that. And second thing [00:56:50] is if anyone wants a tool to help them execute, of course, come try the [00:56:55] circuits free for seven days.

[00:56:56] Steven Puri: No credit card, no bullshit, you know.

[00:56:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:57:00] Fantastic. Steven, listen, look, thank you so much for your time and uh, this was awesome. Thank you for having [00:57:05] [00:57:10] me.

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