[00:00:00] Gerry McGovern: John Booth is a well-known figure in EU data center circles, primarily for his role as a reviewer of the EU code of conduct for data centers and his work with the Certified Energy Efficiency Data Center Award. I started by asking John if he thinks data centers are doing enough to conserve energy, water, and materials in this time of crisis.

[00:00:26] Gerry McGovern: I gave an example of a 2021 survey, which found that 63% of data center managers taught there is no business justification for collecting water usage

[00:00:40] John Booth: data. In the past, I would absolutely 100% agree with you. Um, I don't think data sensors are doing enough to conserve energy, materials and water. Um, but there are things changing at an EU level.

[00:00:53] John Booth: There are a number of pieces of legislation that are due to coming to force over the next two to three years, [00:01:00] which, um, I think will focus their minds very much on the conservation of energy, materials, and water. That's

[00:01:08] Gerry McGovern: good to hear. And, and, um, John, I, I've been involved and you've been I'm sure as well in the tech industry.

[00:01:16] Gerry McGovern: I've been involved since the mid nineties and one thing that struck me, and I think I was very much part of it as well, you know, I changed my computer every two years. I never really thought about materials. I never really thought about ways. I never really thought either. I bought into the idea. That a kind of digital was immaterial or I just didn't care, you know, and I would be in large organization and see this, you know, the, the change equipment at, at a whi there was very little culture of, let's say a conservation.

[00:01:49] Gerry McGovern: It was in, in, in the culture of technology. Is that, is that, would you agree or disagree that, you know, the classical technologist is [00:02:00] not a conservationist by a kind of cultural thinking? Yeah.

[00:02:06] John Booth: And um, I think what we have here is something that we describe in green, it circles as the, the bishop circle. So what you end up doing is, um, you know, uh, somebody creates, uh, a really large.

[00:02:24] John Booth: Data drive with lots more data on it. And then the software developers fill up that, uh, data drive with all sorts of extra code. And then the hardware manufacturers seem to feel that they need to, uh, create even smaller or larger desk drive. Um, and then, and, and it just goes on and on and on. Um, you know, and you can't stop technology.

[00:02:49] John Booth: You know, the amount of, um, chips or transistors on a chip has increased exponentially from over the last 40, 50 years. [00:03:00] Um, and we can do now do a lot more data processing, um, for the same energy that we were doing. Lots and lots of processing many years ago. Um, and, and it does has led to a proliferation of, um, data and data storage and, and the manipulation of data.

[00:03:19] John Booth: But I think that time is, is coming to an end. Moore's law is effectively died. Um, and, you know, until we move to a different type of chip material such as Graphine, um, we, we are basically, we are at a kind of, we're treading water basically in terms of. Of that.

[00:03:40] Gerry McGovern: Yeah. And, um, just for the casual reader or listener, sorry, would you explain Moore's Law?

[00:03:49] John Booth: Uh, well, Moore's Law is, uh, effectively was created by, um, a technologist called Moore's Law. I believe he worked for Intel and he, he specified that the amount [00:04:00] of chips on a, or transistors on a chip would double every two years or one year. And then he extended it to two years. And, um, we have kind of reached the theoretical limits of, of Moore's law at present.

[00:04:14] John Booth: Um, and as I said, only we will only get more power from a, a chip if we move to a new type of material.

[00:04:23] Gerry McGovern: And just back on, on the other point, you raised about the, the absolute, you know, explosion and, and is that circle Yeah. Of. Manufacturers and, and, uh, software gets bigger. So manufacturer devices need to get bigger, et cetera.

[00:04:39] Gerry McGovern: And, and, um, but the quantity of data that's resulting from that, and what I've seen in most of my experience in working with large organizations over the years is that the vast majority of data, 90 to 95% that gets created does not actually get used. Uh, or is [00:05:00] only used for a couple of weeks. Basically two or three months after it's stored, nobody ever goes back to it.

[00:05:06] Gerry McGovern: So we're getting this huge. Bulging explosion of, of, of data that in many ways, uh, the poor quality or low level are stuff that we're not going to go back to is, is going to, you know, override the quality stuff. In my experience, there's less information, architecture skills today than there was 20 years ago.

[00:05:33] Gerry McGovern: Uh, there's less of people have essentially given up and, and kinda the hope is that artificial intelligence or some other technology will help understand the data, but it's like there's this tsunami

[00:05:47] John Booth: of data and organizations.

[00:05:50] Gerry McGovern: And in many cases just been incapable and given up in the, in the very idea of managing

[00:05:57] John Booth: it.

[00:05:57] John Booth: I, I would have absolutely agree with you. [00:06:00] I call that sort of data, frivolous data. It's, it's pictures of cats dancing on Facebook and, and jokes that come round and, and all that sort of stuff. And I, I, I actually, when I speak about this at various events, I've got, um, a, a slide of a picture of, um, uh, a dinner that somebody had in a restaurant.

[00:06:21] John Booth: And I asked the audience, I say, you know, 30 years ago, um, I didn't take a Polaroid of my Sunday lunch and bring it to the pub on Sunday evening and show all my mates what I had to eat. So why do people think that it's, it's, um, necessary and something that they should be doing now? Um, and, and that's just basically user education.

[00:06:43] John Booth: Um, but you know, photographs are personal things. They're developed, you know, taken by people for, for memories. And yes, it is true that a lot of that data isn't never seen again or, you know, in maybe two years time when they're looking back through their, um, [00:07:00] file to see what, what photographs were taken.

[00:07:04] John Booth: And it's very difficult to take something away from somebody. You know, it, it's the whole photographic industry is now digital. Uh, back in the day you would, you know, you'd take your film, you'd take your canister to the processing company, they would process it, and then they would send you, uh, a couple of days later, a pack of photographs and you'd look through them, um, and you'd probably describe the ones you didn't want and keep the ones you did, and then you put them away somewhere safe, uh, to look back through it later on.

[00:07:35] John Booth: I mean, my mother passed away two years ago and we've got a lot of her stuff at the house, and there is a box of photographs. Um, am I gonna look through them? Probably not. I shall put them into storage. Um, so people do store stuff that they don't need. Um, but it, but in this case, it does have an energy storage element.

[00:07:57] John Booth: So we should be a little bit more [00:08:00] circumspect about what we keep and what we discard. Going back into data. . Um, and you talked about AI using that data, I think a lot of companies, um, feel that some of the data they've collected over their operations is useful here. It there, there may be a little nugget in there, um, that can help them shape their strategy moving forward, or it could provide some extra input into a, a bid or a project that they're working on and that's why they don't wanna get rid of it.

[00:08:33] John Booth: Um, but we, I think what we'll see in the future is there will be people who will probably be known as, um, data destroyers or data, uh, analysis scientists that will we'll look through that data and go, is this useful to the business? No. Right. Let's get rid of it then. Um, but you know, we're not there yet.

[00:08:54] John Booth: But I think the climate emergency and the cost of storage, especially with the [00:09:00] energy price increases across Europe, uh, recently. It is definitely something that needs to be, the question needs to be asked and the the management need to put. Steps in place to, to deal with it. You, you, you

[00:09:15] Gerry McGovern: said there a little bit about the photos and I've done some analysis of photos.

[00:09:19] Gerry McGovern: Um, last year we took 1.4, roughly 1.4 trillion photos, so we took more photos than in the entire 20th century. Uh, and I was talking to this, um, really interesting, uh, Australian who's, uh, she basically helps

[00:09:37] John Booth: people, uh, families and things

[00:09:39] Gerry McGovern: manage their photos. And she's talking about concepts like, you know, waiting for the right moment that we need to retrain or, or develop senses of.

[00:09:53] Gerry McGovern: Rather than click, click, click, click, click, you know, to really wait for the right moment and then to have [00:10:00] habits of after you've taken photos to immediately. Go over them, you know, in the, in the

[00:10:05] John Booth: process. And, and then immediately half of them will say, oh,

[00:10:10] Gerry McGovern: that's horrible. I don't want that one, don't want that one.

[00:10:13] Gerry McGovern: But if you wait until you've got 25,000 on your phone, you just walk back in

[00:10:19] John Booth: in the process. And

[00:10:20] Gerry McGovern: I think, I think the same in organizational data. I see a lot of organizations idea, but simply overwhelmed by the, by the quantity of data that they're producing. And

[00:10:31] John Booth: it's like the nugget

[00:10:32] Gerry McGovern: becomes a nugget in a vastly bigger pile of clay and rock.

[00:10:39] Gerry McGovern: And the, the, the rock and the clay gets 10 times bigger every year. So finding that nugget becomes harder in because of the sheer quantity of, of data that's being produced. . Yeah,

[00:10:52] John Booth: absolutely. I agree with you. And, you know, data mining is not a, a new concept. It's been around since kind of like the late nineties.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] John Booth: Um, and y you're right. You know, it, it is. We are going through a lot of stuff and it's human nature though. People need to think, you know, is this actually data that we need to keep when record for posterity? Um, and we do need to be a little bit more, I, I'm gonna call it brutal actually, in, um, in, in what we keep and what we don't keep connected with organizational

[00:11:25] Gerry McGovern: data as well.

[00:11:26] Gerry McGovern: One things that, you know, area that I've been working on, the web and web connected with that web analytics, in my experience, most web analytics and tracking data, and that's even it's problematic to begin with from, you know, privacy point of views in the vast majority of organization groups that is, has very little value of how many people visited yesterday, how many pages did they look at, how much time did they spend on the page?

[00:11:54] Gerry McGovern: And tons of other web teams [00:12:00] actually. Get any, any useful insights outta this data. So often we're getting flooded by types of data that there's an internal feeling or need that, oh, we need to analyze this. We need to be looking at this. And yet an non flooded, this organizational data does not actually lead to.

[00:12:22] Gerry McGovern: Good insights or, or, or useful insights. But there is the feeling that, oh, we need to be tracking people. Most websites don't need to track people because there's, there's really not all that reason, and maybe you disagree with me, but it's just my experience that, and I, I, I've been at so many Monday morning meetings

[00:12:44] John Booth: analyzing the analytics

[00:12:46] Gerry McGovern: data and I was like a type of theater people pretending to say intelligent things, but really nothing happening as a result of those conversations, oh, what will we do?

[00:12:58] Gerry McGovern: Will we delete that page? Will we [00:13:00] keep it, will we rewrite it? No real positive actions, but this kind of data theater

[00:13:06] John Booth: going on

[00:13:07] Gerry McGovern: in so many organiz.

[00:13:09] John Booth: That's a really great term, actually, data theater. Um, and I would absolutely agree with you, we are, we are collecting data for data's sake. Um, and I think if you move to something like the internet of things, and I'll give you an example.

[00:13:24] John Booth: So, um, we, we work with a, a couple of organizations and some of them were quite proud to tell me that they're collecting 1,440 data points, uh, a day for on temperature of a, of a certain item in a certain data center. And you think, well, why are you recording 1,440 data points? Um, the temperature variations are so minute.

[00:13:48] John Booth: Really what you want to be looking at is saying, okay, you look through the data and you go, right? So for 1,420 of those data points that you've [00:14:00] collected, the temperature was 23 degrees. , why not consolidate it and go, right? The average temperature of that particular item in that particular data center was 23 degrees and shrink it down to one data point or two data points.

[00:14:15] John Booth: So only look at the actual things where it's gone out of a, a certain system boundary, um, and, and then analyze that. And only recco only keep what you actually need in order to determine, um, you know, why that temperature rose, what, what was actually happening for that temperature to rise. And, and, you know, I, I think they kind of agree with me.

[00:14:39] John Booth: It's just that it's the logic of, of looking at that daily data and then shrinking it down. And sometimes it's just easier to keep it in their minds. Um, but I, I ask that question and say, you know, so why, why have we got 1,440 points where it says that the temperature was 23.2 degrees? [00:15:00] And they kind of look at me.

[00:15:01] John Booth: As if they say, well, we don't know. So, so I mean, it's quite interesting in that point of view. I think it's, um, we as a people have kind of forgotten what data is and, and we are hoarding data for, for no real reason and it's something that we need to think about. Now I do know that, um, there are a number of organizations that I'm involved with that are looking at the actual coding of software.

[00:15:33] John Booth: Um, and it's a very good philosophy that they put forward. So they talk about the moon landings in 1969 and they say, you know, the computer that was running all that was very limited in its storage space and the code was very limited in its storage space. So just act in your coding. Like you have got a barrier that you cannot go over and to shrink what you are actually getting the chips to do.

[00:15:59] John Booth: And [00:16:00] by the same token, you go. We haven't got enough space to keep it what I call frivolous data. Um, so you have to be circums, you have to have a, an annual spring clean or an autumn clean and go through and go, right. Is that useful? Yes, I'll keep it. Is that useful? No. Right. Let's get rid and get rid. And I think, as I said earlier, the, the energy cost of storing data are gonna rise across Europe at least.

[00:16:29] John Booth: And, and those conversations will need to be had and there'll be need to be had at senior level and a decision will have to come down from high to say, right, let's, let's look at the data. Let's see what's useful, let's see what's not useful. And, and, and take steps to get rid or convert it into tape drives or CDs and, and put it into physical storage.

[00:16:55] John Booth: And that is another green IT concept of hot. Warm, [00:17:00] cold and frozen data. So hot data is data that you access, you know, within a, a month. Um, and then it would move to warm. Warm data is stuff that you may have looked at over six months. Um, cold data is data that you haven't looked at for a year, and frozen data is stuff that you haven't looked at in two years years.

[00:17:19] John Booth: And, and you can change those variables if you want. If you, if you consider hot data to be a week, then that's the prerogative of the company. Um, but the, the idea is, is to make it really difficult to access that cold and frozen data by taking it off the system so that people that want to use it have to put a special request into the o it service team in order to, for somebody to go and retrieve the physical medium and bring it back in and put it on.

[00:17:51] John Booth: And of course, a CD or a tape doesn't use any energy. A data center in a, in an enterprise [00:18:00] can be used in up to 40% of the energy that the entire enterprise uses. And, and that of course, that varies dependent on what type of business your business is actually in. Um, and quite rightly, I think the financial directors are, are going, well, you know what, what is my data center?

[00:18:17] John Booth: Do it? And, and the IT director's been going well, it supports the business. And, and you can't really, um, Start to ask us to do any reductions, um, because we are supporting the business. But what I think is gonna happen in future is they're gonna go, well, yeah, okay, but how are you supporting the business?

[00:18:34] John Booth: What are you doing that is so integral, which is costing me this much money? You know, we are using energy prices going up, affects all organizations, but if you've got a, a high I c T focused organization, then clearly the, the, the cost of the I C T system and its, um, data center and all of its supporting infrastructure is gonna affect how that business works.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] John Booth: Now I'm not advocating cutting to the bone, but you know, in recessionary times and when times are tied, that's exactly what does happen. And you know, people are gonna go look at the data and go, you are using 40% of my energy. Um, and I don't know what metrics you are using to justify. That you are using 40% of my energy.

[00:19:24] John Booth: We need to start to look at what we are doing. You know, is there any quick wins, easy wins that we can adopt, even moving forward to more detailed, um, measures or actions you can take to really reduce your I c t stack, but still continues to support the business. I think, you know, one of the things that always amazes me is, let's take for instance, the latest windows, right?

[00:19:54] John Booth: I mean, I, I, I haven't looked to be honest, but I, it it must be terabytes or, or at least, [00:20:00]you know, gigabytes of information that's stored. And you look at your, look at the average user and most users don't use half of the facilities that are available on the operating systems. So you, you think, you know, why can't we do something about that?

[00:20:17] John Booth: Um, can we not reduce stuff? A little bit more, get rid of this, um, over ambitious coding. Um, reduce the amount of data storage that's required, but it's a bit like Pandora's Box Jerry, you know? Um, once you open it, you can't, you can't take, you can't give something to somebody and expect them not to use it and then take it away from them.

[00:20:42] John Booth: Certainly

[00:20:42] Gerry McGovern: take it away in, in its entirety. But, you know, maybe as you've outlined in this growing maturity, uh, of, and, and these crisis that we're hitting as well, there's, there's maybe, you know, I remember reading about the history of [00:21:00] sugar and that, you know, the sugar consumption in most countries peaked in the seventies and then, and it has been in at least not a radical decline, but somewhat of a decline.

[00:21:11] Gerry McGovern: We got too much of a good thing and then realized that it a lot of negative side effects, but. In the, and I think. This is broadly true, whether it is the private cloud or the private data center world or the public cloud like you. You mentioned about the IT managers and I would've found the exact same kind of culture, the cio, that there is a feeling that.

[00:21:37] Gerry McGovern: The more tech we have, the more data we have, the more the organization is dependent on us and the more important we, we seem. So, you know, having lots of data is good for my career, so to speak. And then in the public cloud it's, well, we, we'll bring them in with free plans or cheap, and then, you know, then we'll [00:22:00] tier it upwards and make, and make lots of of profit from it.

[00:22:03] Gerry McGovern: So there's a, a kinda a, a negative incentive within data centers to encourage the growth of data. Like there's no real incentives in a data center management culture to, to have less data.

[00:22:18] John Booth: Yeah. Well, let me just clarify something here, right? So, um, a data center, There are three, there are two, three different types of data centers.

[00:22:29] John Booth: One is an enterprise data center, and within that type of data center that the, the whole operation is owned and managed by one organization. And then we have co-location type data centers who, who provide hosting services for multiple organizations. And these may be where their existing facility has run out of power space or cooling, and they need to find some other, um, location to st, you know, to, to host their physical infrastructure.[00:23:00]

[00:23:00] John Booth: Um, and then we have the cloud guys, the hyperscalers. Now effectively these guys are all enterprise guys because they own and operate their own facilities, but they also have points of presence in co-location data centers. And it, it would be wrong to say that the data center is at Faultier, it's the cloud provider.

[00:23:21] John Booth: That is providing all of these services. Um, and you know, the cloud is hugely important at the moment. Um, as a, you know, it helps us through pandemic. It allows higher energy efficiency to, to occur. Um, because you are using virtualization, so many companies will be using the same physical platform, which therefore means that they don't have to provide that physical infrastructure and run the energy on it.

[00:23:51] John Booth: And if you were to look at, um, how much enterprise compute is now in the cloud, there should be a corresponding [00:24:00] reduction in on-prem data centers. And that is actually happening now. Unfortunately, what's happening is, is that although the computer's moving. The guys that are running their enterprise data centers aren't then moving on and reducing what they need in terms of their supporting infrastructure.

[00:24:21] John Booth: Uh, so they're still maintaining the same temperature or aspects for a vastly reduced I c t estate. Um, and, and this is the kind of customer we work with, so we kind of say to them, you know, right, you've just moved up, you know, 50% of your IT equipment into the cloud, but you haven't made the corresponding 50% reduction in your coolin, um, power.

[00:24:46] John Booth: Um, and maybe you need to think about shrinking that size of that facility. And so I think we're in a kind of transition period. Um, people will start to be looking at their enterprise facilities once they've moved into the cloud and we will see the [00:25:00] corresponding energy, um, savings. And this, you know, the headline, um, kind of data centers use two, three, 4% of global energy use, but how much does I c t use?

[00:25:13] John Booth: Um, in, but it's not in a data center. And when I say not in a data center, I mean the server cupboards, the small 50 rack data centers stuff that we don't consider to be a data center. The name data center has changed its kind of meaning, and now we kind of mean it to be a hundred megawatt hyperscale, uh, Amazon, Google Meta, Facebook, et cetera, all those guys.

[00:25:40] John Booth: And that's absolutely not the case. In fact, you know, it's only 15% of, um, enterprise I c T is in the cloud. Um, so there's 85% of it. It's still in poorly managed onsite pr, um, data centers where, and I call it the [00:26:00] tragedy of the commons. It, where, you know, the people that are running those facilities are not data center professionals.

[00:26:05] John Booth: They are IT people that just happen to have a data center under their control and they very rarely go to the big trade events. They very rarely see what products, um, and techniques and concepts that are available for them to reduce their energy consumption. And, you know, they, they just can't apply some of the more onerous energy efficiency, um, measures that you can take.

[00:26:33] John Booth: And, and they're the big problem at the moment. I think there's a lot of, and, and the thing is we don't know who they. because we're not measuring them, you know? But for instance, in the UK we have something called the climate Change Agreement. And the climate change Agreement is for commercial data centers.

[00:26:51] John Booth: And this is mostly the, um, co-location guys. And from recent, um, the fourth period of the climate Change [00:27:00] Agreement data centers, it was just over 3.8 million tons of CO2 that was, uh, allocated the emissions. And that actually corresponds to close to 12 terror hours, um, of, of all UK generation in that, that period, that, that two year period, which is actually around 4% of, um, the UK's energy use.

[00:27:23] John Booth: But it still doesn't include the likes of bt. It doesn't include sky's content delivery networks. It doesn't cover any distributed it. So I think when we start looking at it from that point of view, um, We are vastly underestimating our data center energy use. Um, and it, it's almost impossible to find. Now, you remember earlier I said that, um, there's EU legislation coming in that the thing's gonna focus the minds of data center operators and enterprise data center operators.

[00:27:55] John Booth: And, and it will do because where effectively they are asking [00:28:00] for information and they bring in the, the actual, uh, the bar to report down to 50 kilowatts. And that is, um, exceptionally low and it is gonna p pull all of those smaller data centers together. So once that exercise is done in Europe, at least the 27 member states, we will have excellent visibility of our distributor's.

[00:28:25] John Booth: It, and who knows what will happen then? Um, Now I'm not gonna preempt or, or, or suggest anything to the commission as to what they could do, but, you know, but if you had to, what would you say? ? ? Well, the, the, there are policy measures that can take place. Um, you know, and, and it's like any government can, can use instruments to, to change behavior.

[00:28:53] John Booth: And one of them may well be, although it wouldn't be to my mind, a viable solution was to operate [00:29:00] on the, on the p u E metric and say that if your data center is above 1.5, then you have to take steps to reduce it to below 1.5. And of course that may mean that because it's a legacy facility, it may be very difficult to do that.

[00:29:17] John Booth: But there might be a carrot and there may be a stick St mate's, you can operate a 1.7 p e data center, but you are gonna get fined, um, for. For being over 1.7. Um, and if you could

[00:29:31] Gerry McGovern: just explain that metric

[00:29:32] John Booth: please. Just for, yeah. So the PUE metric is, is actually, um, it's much misaligned. Um, even within the industry.

[00:29:40] John Booth: I, I don't think there are many people that actually understand what it means, but it's the total energy that goes into a data center divided by the amount of energy that's used by the IT equipment. So in effect, it's a ratio of, um, how much energy is going in, um, which includes [00:30:00] the cooling power smoothing, um, ancillary services against how much, uh, actual energy is used for the it.

[00:30:09] John Booth: So the, the theoretical minimum is, Um, but we have data centers operated in Europe that are probably close to 3, 4, 5, 6, uh, because they've, they're over-engineered. One thing that

[00:30:22] Gerry McGovern: I've found, um, over the years is, um, I dunno how to put it, the inefficiency of the IT department or the, the lack of, like in many cases when we were, uh, tracking the quantity data in an organization, many IT departments I dealt with didn't even know how many servers they had, let alone how many.

[00:30:44] Gerry McGovern: How much data they had that there was, yes, there was huge inefficiency. Um, and the, but that then comparing that inefficiency, say to the cloud, what I found in the cloud in a lot of environments is you get two X [00:31:00] efficiency, but then you store six extra data because it becomes so much easier to store the data.

[00:31:07] Gerry McGovern: Uh, there's great efficiency in the production and the storage of the data that we, we are kinda, I think it's called Thes paradox or whatever, you know, we, we eat up the efficiency by storing way, way more than we would've originally stored in the more inefficient

[00:31:25] John Booth: environment. One thing that, you know, I often find is I say to them, are you operating the IT information library?

[00:31:34] John Booth: It, uh, and they'll go, yes. I'm gonna say, well, can I have a look at your service catalog then please. A, and you know, They, they , um, and you know, they then don't produce the IT service catalog. And I'll kind of say, right, okay. Um, so tell me about your, how do you manage your IT estate? What project management are you adopting within this organization?

[00:31:59] John Booth: Uh, [00:32:00] and the reason for that is that, and one, I'm not gonna name them, but I went to one a couple of years ago and uh, I said, oh, that looks an interesting, uh, brand new stack of IT equipment in that rack. And he said, yeah, he said that that's, um, the new system for X. And he said, and over there on that rack is the old system for X.

[00:32:21] John Booth: And then he said, and over there is the even older system for X. And you kind of go, right. So if you had adopted Prince two, , there is a decommissioning piece in, in the PRINCE two process and there's also a lessons learned. And then in the IT catalog that you know, you should be, there should be an historical element which talks about what services there are, uh, in your organization at the moment, including the recent stuff.

[00:32:49] John Booth: So what we've got here is a situation where there is management tools that are available and the nature of IT projects [00:33:00] is that once the project is done, nobody's gonna turn off the old system because you never know, you might need to go back to it because the new system might fail. And then a couple of weeks later, the project team disbands and you've got this system sitting there in your data center still on taking up power and network resources.

[00:33:25] John Booth: and it is expensive. You know that I think, uh, in the Eureka project we estimated that it was 14,000 pounds per annum to keep one server up and run in including all the software and the licensing aspect of it. And it's a zombie server. It's to sit there doing nothing. And you know, the Uptime Institute have identified that up to 40% of servers in enterprises in the.

[00:33:52] John Booth: Could be zombie service.

[00:33:55] Gerry McGovern: And that I, I, I talked to, uh, you just remind me a conversation I [00:34:00] had with an enterprise architect of , he'd spent 30 or 40 years in, in, in the IT industry. And he says he'd never been in an organization not once that he could remember, where he couldn't remove 90% of the architecture of the IT architecture and make that organization run better.

[00:34:21] John Booth: And, and, um, we've seen this, you know, this high movement to the cloud. Um, and I think what's happening is, is that people are seeing the cloud as the silver bullet, um, that it will help them with their IT problems. But I don't think they are because of the way that they're actually moving their services into the cloud, they're not performing a kind of overall analysis of why we have got that particular.

[00:34:50] John Booth: Uh, application and its physical hardware. Why are we moving something that's already zombie into, uh, into the cloud? [00:35:00] Um, I, in the past I've done a lot of, um, data center migrations, and I'll give you one example. So we were moving a customer from one data center into another data center, and, um, we had a team of guys there, and I think we shifted about 400 items.

[00:35:16] John Booth: So we, we basically would consolidate, we were doing all that work, you know, bringing the server in after it had been packed, unpacking it, put it in the rack, connecting it up, connecting up to the network, et cetera. And there was this one particular machine that, um, the client said, oh, it's not working.

[00:35:32] John Booth: Okay. Oh, wait then, so I went off and, um, I al almost, I replaced. Virtually every single component in that machine except for the disk. And I was still getting the dreaded NT loader not present or correct. And at the end of the day, I went to see the client and I said, right, everything's done. There's just this one particular box that's, um, it's, it's ev evaded all attempts for me to [00:36:00] repair it.

[00:36:00] John Booth: And he went, oh, I dunno why we moved that it, it's never worked. And you think, how many ti, you know, how many hours that I spent trying to get that machine working when, when it didn't work and it shouldn't have been there and you know it. Yeah. You know, to come back to what we were saying, organizations need to do a deep spring clean on their own facilit.

[00:36:25] John Booth: even if it's just to reduce their energy bill. Um, that would be a good start. And then once they've done the, the spring clean, it's, it's gonna help them, you know, rationalize and sort out their, their, their entire IT infrastructure and probably free up lots of resources, um, network capacity, power capacity in their existing facilities.

[00:36:48] John Booth: And then they can go to internal clouds, you know, they can build internal cloud structures, um, themselves. And then they need to be, you know, proper gatekeepers on, on the storage. You know, [00:37:00] you only put this data in there if it's useful to the organization. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, the, the, the thing is Jerry, the tools are out there.

[00:37:10] John Booth: Um, it now needs the internal will of the executive directors to implement the green IT and energy efficiency requirements because the cloud's not going away. The cloud is gonna be there, you know, it's integral to the way that the world works at the moment. Um, but it does need to be improved. And I'm sure, and I know through conversations I've had with my clients, that they, they wanna be, you know, they don't want to be sitting there carrying instant, you know, data that's frivolous.

[00:37:40] John Booth: They wanna be seen as, um, a addressing the climate crisis. They wanna see be seen as being efficient. Um, and, and, and it's just, you know, what does it take, do, do energy prices? Well, energy prices already quadrupled. Um, if you think about, and there's another example. So back in [00:38:00] the night, I'm old enough to remember the 1973 oil crisis.

[00:38:03] John Booth: I was only a, a nipper at the time, but, My dad used to literally moan at me if I left the light on in my room. And that habit has stayed with me till today. You know, if I'm in a room, I only turn the light and when I enter the room and I'll turn the light off when I leave the room. Um, and, and maybe that, that kind of mentality has to be cascaded down and just connect with the related, or I think it's related

[00:38:33] Gerry McGovern: at least, is this obsession.

[00:38:37] Gerry McGovern: In my experience with the, the latest, greatest processor, like, so it's not just storage data, it's processing, and I find that there's a lot of unnecessary processing or that organizations will change, like their processing if the latest. Gizmo, it only has, you know, 0.0001% improvement. You know, [00:39:00] they, they'll go for it and they'll get rid of perfectly good

[00:39:02] John Booth: working

[00:39:03] Gerry McGovern: equipment or you know, the broad obsession.

[00:39:06] Gerry McGovern: But I must have the ferr of processing every time, even though I don't really need it for the job that's there. But I really wanna say that I have the, the latest and greatest and mega processing. So we're often trying, you know, processing that is hundreds of times greater than is what is necessary for

[00:39:29] John Booth: the problem at hand.

[00:39:30] John Booth: Absolutely. But I think that's changing. So we've had recent news that, um, some of, I think it's Google are extending the lives of their service from three years to five years. I think, uh, Facebook of the Meta have done the same. Amazon are definitely gonna be sweating their assets. Now. I don't think they're doing this for, um, Altruistic reasons, or for energy efficiency reason, I think they're doing it because of the shortage of chips.

[00:39:59] John Booth: Um, so they're [00:40:00] basically sweating their assets a bit long, a bit longer. And, and this is a well-known green it, uh, concept as well. It, you know, if, if something works, if it's not broke, don't fix it. You know, let it continue to do what it, what it needs to do. And up until recently, Moore's law would've kind of pointed you towards changing it out because you are getting more processing power for every kilowatt of energy.

[00:40:25] John Booth: But as we had mentioned earlier, but the gains that you get from having the latest, greatest equipment are absolutely steady diminishing. So there is no reason to go out and get the best phone or the best, uh, server in that class as long as it's, unless you are in, um, an environment where you've got. An absolute need to be faster and better than everybody else.

[00:40:51] John Booth: And, and for that is a very small niche of the banking sector, which is the higher frequency trade-in element. Um, where, [00:41:00] where the, the processor will make a difference to your bottom line. But that's only like more 0.5%. Not even that, it's probably less than that of all. Um, you know, it trading. So only those guys should do it.

[00:41:16] John Booth: But of course, what will happen then is, is that, you know, because it's such a small market, um, maybe the processes won't be increased on such a frequent basis. Um, the other thing to consider is, is that there is a whole ecosystem that's built up with, um, developing faster, better chips and faster better service.

[00:41:37] John Booth: They, their business models are based on people replacing their equipment every two to three years. So of course if that time period gets extended, then obviously we're gonna see the development side of things start to slow down as well. But, you know, which might be a good thing. Well, I was just about to say, I think it would be a good thing because you know, as we said earlier, why have we got [00:42:00] Bloatware operating systems that are running all sorts of different and wonderful code that 99% of the people don't use.

[00:42:08] John Booth: I sit here in front of my PC and I can tell you that I use probably five or six applications. I use Word to do documents. I use Excel to. Spreadsheets and, and, and financial stuff. I use the internet to, to keep in touch with people. And I do pod podcasts, so I use Zoom and have meetings. I don't, you know, I look through, I click on the old Windows button, the bottom of my pc, and I look through all of these services and, you know, I can tell you that there's at least three quarters of them.

[00:42:45] John Booth: I've never, ever used. Um, paint 3d. Phone link photos. Uh, yeah, I've got some photos. Publish it. Never use it. Skype, it's on there. I've never used, I, I don't use it anymore. Spotify never use it. Sticky notes, [00:43:00]I never use it. These applications shouldn't be embodied or embedded into the operating system. They should be specific requests by the user to, to use them.

[00:43:14] John Booth: Um, and that would reduce the amount of stuff needed.

[00:43:18] Gerry McGovern: I, I almost feel it physically pains me when I hear this about hard drives that are, that are work, that are okay and working, being physically trashed, you know, for security reasons. Um, you and I know, I understand. It's, and it's the irony isn't it, of, of our world, our digital world.

[00:43:39] Gerry McGovern: We're, we're constantly told, oh, you gotta keep multiple copies because it's so, you know, unstable.

[00:43:46] John Booth: And then you're told, ah, you

[00:43:47] Gerry McGovern: gotta physically trash this. Cause you can never really hundred percent get rid of it. You know that surely. You know this, we can change that. Where we don't need to physically destroy [00:44:00] something, you know, a server can have caused between one and twon of CO2 manufacture.

[00:44:06] Gerry McGovern: And you know, that physical destruction of something that is working in a climate crisis where material impact of mining is, is absolutely huge on the planet. You know, it, it's not a good look for the IT industry

[00:44:23] John Booth: and I think what annoys me more in more is that they are absolutely just shredded. Um, and I dunno what they're actually doing with the, the component materials.

[00:44:34] John Booth: And I think that's another problem that the IT manufacturers need to address is the recyclability of those components. Now I know the right of repairers just come into EU legislation and that will no doubt trigger, um, A lot of angst within the, within the manufacturing community. Um, and I do recall being [00:45:00] on a nsf, um, which is part of the, um, energy star as an observer and seeing a draft for, uh, server makeup.

[00:45:11] John Booth: And at the time there was a, a requirement for, you know, 85% of the server components to be recyclable. And there was a massive pushback from the manufacturing companies, um, that they, they, they wouldn't and couldn't do 85% and, you know, they, they, they really did water them down. But the actual requirements,

[00:45:34] Gerry McGovern: the stats that I have done, and this is globally not in, in electronics in general, not, not just servers and stuff, less than 20%, uh, globally recycled and even what is recycled.

[00:45:47] Gerry McGovern: No more than about 30% of reusable materials retrieved cause of the sheer complexity of the material design of the products that you just can, [00:46:00] when you get one, when you get the copper or whatever, the, you lose the other stuff by the process you've used.

[00:46:07] John Booth: It's an, it's an absolutely massive problem. Um, and, and, you know, e-waste as it's called, um, which, which includes it equipment, but also things like fridges and cookers and bread makers and microwaves and old coffee machines.

[00:46:22] John Booth: It's growing on a absolute. It's phenomenal basis. And, and I think the problem is, is that, um, these companies to date have not really worried about the aftermath. And, and we do have a kind of use it and dispose of it mentality. Um, we don't keep, tend to keep things on, you know, there is an inherent five year replacement cycle for, uh, kitchen items, for instance.

[00:46:48] John Booth: And, and that's a business model that kind of wants you to keep buying. Um, I mean, I'll just give you an example. Very recently our five year old washing machine blew up. Literally [00:47:00] blew up. Um, and we had to go out and buy a new one. Um, now I would've much preferred to have got it repaired, but I said to my wife, you know, um, you know, how much would it be to get somebody to look at it?

[00:47:12] John Booth: She said, well, you know, it'll be a hundred and. It'll be a hundred pounds just for him to turn up at the door. And then if you find something wrong with it and he has to wait, you know, and all the time the wass mounting up in the house, um, it's cheaper and easier just to go to the shop and buy a new one and get it delivered.

[00:47:31] John Booth: And that's what we did. And, but I think that business model is kind of, it, it's doomed to failure in these resource restricted type energy prices going up means that the embodied carbon in a, in a, in a device is gonna be up. But the right to repair legislation from the European Union means that those items need to be repairable.

[00:47:53] John Booth: Um, and we're gonna see, I think hopefully we'll start to see items that are designed to [00:48:00]last 10, 15, 20. , but also be able to be, um, be modular in nature so that you can basically take a component out and put a new component in and get that done. And there are other industries that do this. I mean, you know, refurbished, uh, gear boxes and engines for instance, can be purchased, um, from the motor manufacturers.

[00:48:24] John Booth: Look at what happened with the motor manufacturers. You know, I remember going to Breaker's yards when I had, uh, you know, a 1975, um, triumph dolomite and finding old Triumph Dolomites in a very precarious kind of, uh, breaker's yard situation. And you kind of took your life in your hands to go and recover some of the items.

[00:48:47] John Booth: Cause the cars were just basically chucked in a big pile. Nowadays if you go to a Breaker's yard, you, you don't even go onto the. Onto the area where the cars are because they've got [00:49:00] people working in there that are taken out all of the, you know, the, the value, the useful items and bagging them up and putting 'em in the store room.

[00:49:08] John Booth: You go in and go, I need a shock absorber for a client or whatever, Ford Fiesta. And the guy will go, there you go, 50 quid please. You don't go out and do your own kind of breaking. Now. It's all, um, it's all become a lot more professional. And why did that happen? Because the EU put a law in place saying motor vehicles need to be 85% recyclable.

[00:49:33] John Booth: The

[00:49:33] Gerry McGovern: vast majority of websites today know of or interacted with do not need 99.9% uptime and, and the same equivalent for data. And I think this pursuit of absolute. A kind of obsession with a, a, a perfectionist metric of, you know, we will be on all this 99.99% of time. Cause a lot of [00:50:00] that drives, oh we can't, we have to get rid of the server after three years, even if it's working because of the statistical chance that it might cause a flaw after three and a half years that, you know, maybe this, this, these metrics of that how we measure, we could say, just like you said earlier, a lot of data can be frozen or cold.

[00:50:24] Gerry McGovern: A lot of data doesn't always have to be, ave doesn't have to be, even, even in this cloud environment, can, uh, comfortably deal with 90% or 95%. And if you had those lesser, you know, standards, the equip the equipment could last

[00:50:42] John Booth: a lot longer. Okay. So, um, I think this is down to. Risk and the risk appetite of organizations.

[00:50:51] John Booth: And it's something that I've actually included in a, an impending uh, building sustainable data centers course that we [00:51:00] plan to deliver, uh, next year. And it's basically saying to people, what is your perception of risk? Why, why are you, um, building these facilities with these multiple layers of security and these multiple backups of everything?

[00:51:18] John Booth: What is it you are actually trying to protect? Now, I'll give you an example. When I worked for, um, rather large systems integrator, I was seconded into a retailers and, um, we used to get basically requests from the business unit, um, to, to provide IT equipment. And, um, we, we had a kind of a spreadsheet that we would use in order to do that.

[00:51:41] John Booth: So the guy, you know, the, the, the, the architecture was. X different service of this and a bit of storage array there. And then there was this, and there was networking and all that sort of stuff. And I said to him, right, so what do you want? He said, I want an August singing all dance in 24 7, 365. Um, totally resilient [00:52:00] approach.

[00:52:00] John Booth: I said, okay. So we worked out on the spreadsheet, which had somebody else had done, said, I hadn't had any input into the way this said, it came out, it was, it was close on three quarters of a million pounds to provide the hardware for this particular service. And, um, I sent that to him and, and he, and he looked at it in shock and he said, well, this is far, you know, this exceeds my budget completely.

[00:52:21] John Booth: And I says, well, you've asked for an all singing audience in 3, 3, 6, you know, 24 7, 365 solution. What you need to do now is to work out whether or not you actually need those service. 24 7, 365, because I think you'll find that you probably don't, and I think this is, it's an education piece for IT architects as well.

[00:52:43] John Booth: Uh, and it's also pushing back on the business. It's like saying to the business, why do you need this service up for all of that length of time? Do you need this disaster recovery, business continuity element? Would you, you know, can you accept a [00:53:00] service being down for three hours during the day until it can be recovered?

[00:53:05] John Booth: What actual impact is that going to have on the business unit itself? And I think one of the, um, and this is why I continually go back to the code of conduct, um, for data centers, energy efficiency and, and the use of its best practices as a strategic and cultural change tool. You need to ask those questions.

[00:53:30] John Booth: Um, now, what I would do in that particular retail environment, I was actually asked to do business engineer and disaster recovery. And I went round, uh, and spoke to every single business unit and said, you know, what do you consider to be your absolutely must have, um, application that's always available, 3 6 24 7 365.

[00:53:54] John Booth: And funnily enough, when I asked the guy that the IT director, he said, [00:54:00] oh, Csuite email. And I just looked at him with this incredulous look on my face and said, really email? And he said, yeah. And I said, what? Said what? The, the senior management team can't pick up phones or they can't walk into the next guy's office on the same floor that they're all on.

[00:54:21] John Booth: Why? Why would you consider C-Suite email as being your priority one application? You know, your priority one applications are. things that are related to the business. So in your case, it is your EPO system, electronic point of sale, so that when people come into your stores, they can select the goods that they want to do and pay for them, which puts money in your bank.

[00:54:44] John Booth: But more importantly, um, it also marks a link on the logistics system so that the logistics system knows that that item is, has been sold and it can restock it. So those are your two most [00:55:00] important applications. Getting the money in and your supply chain, C-suite, email my friend, is a lot lower down the list.

[00:55:09] John Booth: And I think what companies should do, our IT director should do, they should do the audit. They should work out exactly what applications they're providing to the business and then the physical hardware that it's running on. And then they need to say, right, what actual business continuity, disaster recovery.

[00:55:28] John Booth: aspects do I need to apply to these facilities? And what they would do then is, you know, they would do right in my data center, I'm gonna have a tier four area, which is the, for the most critical of critical systems being, in this case, the EPOS and the supply chain software, and then graduate down. So that would those, and you'd probably find actually that it would be one rack [00:56:00] that would need to be at tier four, which is the Uptime Institute classification for Mission Criticality or an EM 5,600 class war.

[00:56:09] John Booth: And then that most of your applications can probably be notched down a level because they're not mission critical. Yeah. Okay. It's, uh, , it's nice to have, but is it stopping from doing my work? No. When it comes back up, I'll be able to do what I need to do. And I think the problem is, is that a lot of IT departments treat every single application that they have within their company as being mission critical, when actually it certainly isn't.

[00:56:38] John Booth: Um, and you, but you can only do that if you are prepared to undertake that deep, strategic and cultural analysis of your organization's IT stack and be prepared to make the decisions that will reduce your energy consumption and potentially reduce your procurement requirements. So instead of replacing your [00:57:00] laptops or your desktops every three years, extend it to five years.

[00:57:04] John Booth: It's a win-win win for the organization. And what it'll do is it'll force the IT companies and all of their, their supply chain to really start to think about their business models, especially in line with the climate emergency.

[00:57:22] Gerry McGovern: In Ireland at the moment, data centers are, are consuming

[00:57:25] John Booth: 14% of electricity and

[00:57:27] Gerry McGovern: delivering 1800 permanent jobs.

[00:57:30] Gerry McGovern: So 1800 jobs, 14% of of Irish electricity. And from studying, you know, the, and these are the, you know, the big data centers, uh, the hyperscale or whatever, that they're terrible essentially for the local community. Uh, they take the land, they take the energy, and they take the water locally, and, and they, you know, they give very little back to the actual community.

[00:57:54] Gerry McGovern: So the sense of the data center is not a good community [00:58:00] member in the, like the purpo, I saw this study in Paris, which said, you know, for if, if a, a store, you know, a typical store would give 50 jobs, then the equivalent data center would give one job. Back to the community. And I don't know if you, I know it's a hard thing to ask a question about, but the, that, that sense of, of being a good, you know, being a good local or community member for data centers, it's, it's not something that, that they deliver a lot of value to the local community, which,

[00:58:37] John Booth: yeah.

[00:58:38] John Booth: And, you know, um, I think I've been talking about this for some time. We, we, the, the sector itself and, and because it's so fragmented and diverse, I think what we're gonna refer to here is the hyperscalers and the co-location guys, what I would call the, the professional data center operators. [00:59:00] It's a relatively new industry, Jerry, you know, it really only became, um, a viable business after the.com boom of the early two thousands.

[00:59:11] John Booth: And, and effectively it, it was to sell space and to recover the monies that have, that had been spent on this.com boom. That, uh, and all of the infrastructure that was built for it. And the, it is funny, you know, when you talk to the industry's professionals, and, and I do frequently go to every event that I can, and you, and you talk to them, um, it's, it's very clear that a lot of them are, they're engineers, um, engineers and technicians, and they are.

[00:59:46] John Booth: That well kind of acquainted with the other functions such as hr, marketing, publicity, um, management, really, you know, it's, it's still a very immature industry in certain respects, [01:00:00] and they are in a huge growth spurt at the moment, right. And, but the industry globally is short of some 400,000 technical people.

[01:00:13] John Booth: And that doesn't include, you know, the, the, those administrative managerial roles that I think, um, would, would come part of that business. It is changing. Um, there are now people that, that can talk a good talk, but we are very bad as a sector of, um, saying our message, which our message is, look, you know, we are providing the digital infrastructure that, that modern day life relies on.

[01:00:43] John Booth: because the in the sector is staffed with people whose ability to get a good message across is limited because of the nature of their, uh, work background. You know, these guys were [01:01:00] installing cables, they were building panels, they were maintaining data centers. They, they weren't professional PR people.

[01:01:09] John Booth: Um, They're not very good at getting that message across, but I think that's changing. And you know, Gary Connolly, for instance, who, who, who's host for Ireland, um, he, he's doing a really good job at getting that message across. And, you know, island, the problems in Ireland due to data centers are not due to data centers.

[01:01:29] John Booth: The problems in Ireland that are impacting data centers are, are down to the fact that the government and Irid and all of those other elements, people, organizations, have not sufficiently taken on board what Gary has been telling them for the last eight years or so. And they haven't done, they haven't met their side in the bargain.

[01:01:54] John Booth: They have, they haven't put in place the infrastructure that's required and developed the [01:02:00] energy storage systems that, um, are part of, you know, a, a new 21st. Grid infrastructure that can take renewables on board. So it is really the, the energy industry's problem in Ireland. What as to why data centers are not perceived to be a problem.

[01:02:21] John Booth: They are in effect deflecting the blame onto the data centers. But put it this way, if data centers account for 14%, who gave them the planning permission? Who should have been putting infrastructure in place? And you know, those are questions that need to be asked. Um, cause I don't think you can blame the data centers per se for being up at 14% of the grid and only employing.

[01:02:50] John Booth: And I've actually, I've cast doubt on that 1400 jobs as well because there's probably, you, you need to think about the ecosystem. So it might be 1400 [01:03:00] direct jobs, but how many other jobs? Have been created by the fact that those data centers are there. And we have to consider this in the same way as we, for instance could, could consider any major industry.

[01:03:14] John Booth: It's the support services that are the service in those industries. Electro mechanical guys. Think about, you know what, and this is sometimes not said Jerry, but Ireland, Irish subcontractors that are skilled in the construction of data centers are operating globally. Right. And that is purely because they did so much work in data centers in Dublin and they know that, you know, there was seen to be a.

[01:03:46] John Booth: Workforce, they've built stuff and that, that el element is very rarely mentioned. Um, but it's a, you are exporting data center knowledge and construction globally, and [01:04:00] that employs a lot more people than the 1400 people you just mentioned.

[01:04:05] Gerry McGovern: Well, yeah, there, I mean, there, there's definitely that, but still relatively speaking, I mean, Ireland's a small economy, but there's still two and a half million implied and.

[01:04:16] Gerry McGovern: It's um, you know, the, the actual returns and you said Yeah, the, the, the other jobs. But those jobs, that's the whole promise at it loud. There is likely to be in Seattle or Hamburg. You know, the mead data center is not good for the mead community, basically, cuz it takes the local people's water, it takes their electricity, it takes their land, and they might get a few cleaning jobs or security jobs there, you know, that that's.

[01:04:48] Gerry McGovern: You know, it's not a good community, uh,

[01:04:52] John Booth: prospect it. And, and I would say that yes, you're probably right up to this point, but I think the data center [01:05:00] sector has recognized that. And I know for a fact that we are working on a project in Portugal and one of the elements from the, the, the sustainability and e s G elements is that they are creating a local college and they are going to be taking, uh, school levers through that college in order to give them the skills to work within the facility.

[01:05:24] John Booth: Um, and you could argue that that's, you know, smacking of, um, estate type, medieval, um, kind of thing. But you know, if the people have the skills, and, and I know this, um, people that work for somebody like Amazon, they can get a job working in Dublin. As a, as a technician. And then they can apply for similar jobs anywhere on the Amazon estate.

[01:05:56] John Booth: So they could go to the US and they could increase their [01:06:00] knowledge, their skills, and get promoted. Um, uh, and basically make a great career for themselves. And then they can move again. They can go to the Asia-Pac region, they can go to India. They can experience all sorts of life. As I said earlier, the data center sector is very naive in terms of it, it's maturity of its, um, you know, it's a 20 what, two year old industry.

[01:06:25] John Booth: Um, there will be some growing pains. And I think that, you know, through the actions of myself talking about this on this podcast and, and all of the other relationships that I have, um, all of the trade events and all the speaking, um, engagements that I do that slowly and surely, you know, it's like a super tanker changing direction.

[01:06:45] John Booth: Um, they're in, they're in kind of a panicky mode at the moment because they know that energy prices are gonna be high. They know that there's a Willis impending legislation come down, and they appreciate that. They maybe have been doing things and saying things that [01:07:00] are, as a result of their immaturity, they will mature.

[01:07:04] John Booth: And I think that you'll find in, we had this conversation in 10 years time, that your in the entire view will be hopefully somewhat different.

[01:07:18] John Booth: If

[01:07:18] Gerry McGovern: you're interested in these sorts of ideas, please check out my book, worldwide waste@jerrymcgovern.com to hear other interesting podcasts. Please visit this is hcd.com.

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