The Human Centered Design Podcast with Gerry Scullion

June Holley 'Building meaningful, lasting and impactful connections through purpose-led network weaving'

John Carter
August 29, 2022
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June Holley 'Building meaningful, lasting and impactful connections through purpose-led network weaving'

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Episode shownotes

In this episode I speak with June Holley, from - June is at the forefront of thought-leadership when it comes to community building and we speak about all matters of what community and networks mean - how they differ and also how to go about foster communities for change-makers.

I think you’re going to enjoy it!

Episode Transcript

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[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hello, and welcome to bringing design. Our goal is to have conversations that inspire and help move the dial forward for organizations to become more human centered in their approach to solving complex business and societal problems. My name is Jerry Scollon. I'm the founder of this is ACD and we've been creating content.

[00:00:41] And this is ACD for probably over five years now. And if you really wanna help us out, please leave a review wherever you're listening on Spotify, apple podcasts, or. Those lovely algorithms really do love your interaction and it helps our community grow. And every little helps. If you don't leave a review, you can go one better by telling people that you [00:01:00] work with about the podcast or telling people that you you're in your tribe about the podcast.

[00:01:04] Now we launched a space and this is recently where you can take courses and visualization, design research, and service design topics. So please check it out. It helps support the podcast. In this episode, I speak with the wonderful. June Holly from network and June is at the forefront of taught leadership when it comes to community building and we speak about all matters of what community and network means and how they differ and how to go about fostering communities for change makers.

[00:01:32] It's highly relevant for our audience. I think you're gonna enjoy it. Let's jump straight in June. How are you doing? I am delighted to speak with you. How.

[00:01:42] June Holley: I'm I'm so glad to be here with you today.

[00:01:44] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I'm so delighted to be with you June. You know, I've been a long term fan. Um, and for anyone listening, they're like, wow, Jerry's really low.

[00:01:54] I've a cold, the moment it's of the gifts you get of the, in Ireland, where [00:02:00] moment, the moment. But where are you coming from

[00:02:04] June Holley: June? I live in Athens, Ohio in the United States.

[00:02:09] Gerry Scullion: Nice. Um, Athens, Ohio. That's a, it's a big college town. I believe isn't it. Right,

[00:02:15] June Holley: right. But it's a very small outside of the university.

[00:02:19] So it's a delightful, innovative place to live. Very friendly.

[00:02:25] Gerry Scullion: And are you originally from Ohio?

[00:02:28] June Holley: Well, I was born in Ohio, but I've lived all over the us

[00:02:32] Gerry Scullion: all your life. Wow. And June tell us, um, how you describe what you.

[00:02:38] June Holley: Well, I am a network Weaver, right? And that's a term that talks about someone that is always looking around and thinking about how they can connect one person that has certain interests and needs with another person [00:03:00] who also maybe has that interest and, and can help that other person.

[00:03:06] So, Like, I'm all about connecting in ways that help build community.

[00:03:13] Gerry Scullion: Nice. It's not too dissimilar to matchmaking. Uh, when, when you, when you, and I hear you describe it, well,

[00:03:18] June Holley: it's right. It's I, I have this activity called speed networking. That's like speed dating, right. That helps people get to know each other and figure out who they wanna dive in deeper with.

[00:03:33] Gerry Scullion: So what does a good connection look like and how do you do.

[00:03:37] June Holley: Well, I think a good connection starts with listening. mm. You know, where you meet somebody and you start trying to find out about them and, um, you know, how they are as a person we're also unique and we're, we're just this amazing bouquet of [00:04:00] different interests gifts.

[00:04:03] Mm-hmm skills needs. So I think it starts out by trying to ask those questions and give the space to people, to, to tell about themselves. And then you can start thinking about, oh, how do I connect with that person? You know, how can I bring out the best in them and connect them to others that are going to help them out or.

[00:04:32] Offer them

[00:04:32] Gerry Scullion: something. And how did you get into this space? Like, cuz it's, you know, a lot of the listeners for, from this is hate CD are designers or they're I call 'em change makers. Um, really, and I guess network, we even might be a kinda a, a new phrase for some people like, you know, so I'd love to know about your journey into this space.

[00:04:52] Well,

[00:04:52] June Holley: when I was really little, I always wanted to help. The world be a better place for more people. I, I could sense [00:05:00] that even as a young child. And so when I was a young adult, I, I tried to study change mm-hmm and, and how we could change the world. So I came across complexity science. Yeah. Before that was really a thing.

[00:05:19] And. There was a lot in there about change. But when I started talking about things like south organizing or emergence, this was back in the eighties, right. People rolled their eyes. So then I started talking about networks. Yeah. Because that's a key part. Like the connections, the relationships is a way to talk about all of that.

[00:05:42] And people say, oh yeah, I get, I get networks. I get connections, relationships. And so that's how I, the whole understanding of networks, because it seemed like we weren't paying enough attention. To our relationships, both with other people and with the [00:06:00] rest of the world, you know, the NA sort of natural

[00:06:03] Gerry Scullion: world.

[00:06:04] I mean, that all sounds, uh, brilliant, like from the, the human center design network is what we have in, in our title. Um, I guess somewhat foolishly in 2017. I was, that was part of my mission. I was trying to connect people with, with other people and we've gone a journey like we have slack. Okay. And as, as of the time of writing seven days away where we're killing off slack because, um, We just couldn't get it to work.

[00:06:33] Okay. We just, it wasn't a facilitator of meaningful conversations and it was noise in people's lives. And it took an awful lot of time, really for, for people to try and sift through things. How do you feel, um, the evolution of community, like when you had this journey into it in the eighties, how it's evolved to where we're at now in a distributed society and [00:07:00] what does that look like?

[00:07:00] Well,

[00:07:01] June Holley: Yeah. I mean, I think the part that's missing is people seeing themselves as these network weavers. So it's like, if we all start looking around and noticing, Ooh, there's lots of people talking about this. And, and cuz I think networks are really powerful when you help organize smaller gatherings within the network.

[00:07:28] Yeah. So it's like. What conversation are some people ready to have. And so then a network Weaver will look at that and say, okay, I'm gonna set up a zoom call. With these dozen people. Yep. And we're just gonna spend an hour, hour and a half digging in deeply and try to maybe collect some understanding about that.

[00:07:53] We might end up doing something together. We might not, but this idea that you notice [00:08:00] something that needs to emerge and you help. People together to explore that. And, and that's the part that I just love and find really exciting.

[00:08:12] Gerry Scullion: So like the whole kind of sparking up multiple zooms and topics, um, and it might lead somewhere, um, who, who would be, who who's part of your network and, well, what do they look like at the moment?

[00:08:24] Like in terms of. Not just personalities, but backgrounds, I guess, is it

[00:08:29] June Holley: academics a year or, and a half ago I decided to sort of retire and stop doing contract work. Okay. And the first thing I did was try to become an international person. Yeah. And so with people in Africa and New Zealand in south America, and it was.

[00:08:52] So amazing for me, particularly connecting with people that were actually trying to make change on the ground. Yeah, absolutely. And [00:09:00] so now I have this vast network of people around the world and I'm trying to begin connecting them with, with other people like Africa, for example, is so unconnected.

[00:09:17] Absolutely. With the rest of the world. Yeah. And yet there's so much exciting. Work stop happening there that we need to learn from. Absolutely. So my network is really, I I'm like a meta grandmother networker I'm trying to get the big picture and then help, help things happen. Help things start to. To emerge out of that because, you know, we have some pretty big problems we're trying to deal with now.

[00:09:47] Yeah. And we really need a lot of people working on this. I'm

[00:09:51] Gerry Scullion: definitely getting a sense of an elder, uh, kind of from, from a, you know, a community perspective. Um, and I'd love to tap into that a little bit more [00:10:00] when I say, um, community. And I say network they're interchanged in my, in my vocabulary. Is that fair?

[00:10:08] Is it or are they

[00:10:09] June Holley: separate? Well, they're a little bit different when I think of network. That's just like a pair of glasses you put on mm-hmm to notice relationships, a community is more about, um, sense of belonging, a a, a sense. You know that you ha you have some things that you wanna maybe do or explore together.

[00:10:32] So, so it's a more binding kind of nurturing space. Whereas the network is just about paying attention to who's relating to whom, and especially who's being left. Who's on the edge that needs to be in the center. So, and where, where different

[00:10:51] Gerry Scullion: and where would purpose sit within community for

[00:10:55] June Holley: you? Well, well, right, so usually communities [00:11:00] form around a purpose.

[00:11:01] There's some particular thing that this particular community wants to do, or that drives them. That that gives them meaning. Whereas like a network can. Much more amorphous term. It doesn't have ne necessarily have purpose or boundaries. So

[00:11:21] Gerry Scullion: a network is really about the, the value exchange, um, in, in a relationship, I guess that's, that's what I'm hearing in, in my filtered mind when, when I'm, I'm talking about, whereas community is much more richer and meaningful.

[00:11:36] Um,

[00:11:36] June Holley: Right now, some networks, people that call themself, we are the XX network. They actually are a community. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, but com network is a broader term.

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Now one of the things I was mentioned to you in, in our emails back and forth was, um, something that really. Surprised me an awful lot is, [00:12:00] um, some people have said that I I'm, I'm a community builder.

[00:12:02] Okay. Like I'm, I'm trying to bring people together and a change maker. And we, we did that through the do and design festival, which we had, and we did it with the slack channel for a small while. And then we started running city based, um, events, pre, and then the pandemic came and then we were like, okay, we'll do them all online.

[00:12:18] And it all kind of went a bit skewy and it got more difficult, but we were running these events, which were effective, like video podcast. And there wasn't much conversation afterwards in any of the channels. And I, I started to sit back and I was like, well, what does design look like in the next, I dunno, five years in, not, not too distant future.

[00:12:40] And I believe in the distributed world, I think there's this huge role to play for the change makers about bringing people together pretty much what you're doing now. I'd love to know how do people get started in this and what does a good network Weaver look.

[00:12:57] June Holley: Well, you know, I think I'm really [00:13:00] intrigued by this idea of a network Weaver as a facilitator of what I call co-design.

[00:13:07] Yeah. So let me just talk a little bit about how co-design differs from human centered design. Yeah. Or other kinds of design. Yeah. So it. It's a participative process where, you know, you may have an expert involved. Yeah. But, but really it's the, it's the set of people who want to design or experiment. They wanna co-create something together and there's a, a facilitator.

[00:13:41] And I would call them a network Weaver though. You might call them a designer, but who actually brings people together to think about something they wanna create. We need to really, co-create a new culture, a new set of structures, institutions, [00:14:00] ways of doing things that are healthier, where we're peers, where we're being supportive of each other.

[00:14:08] And that's what co-design can do. Yeah. And so you can take a chunk of like, let's say you have a people in a community and they want to create a community garden. Yeah. Well, so somebody, a network Weaver brings them together, gets them to talk about what they bought, what they need to be created and would ask them hard questions.

[00:14:33] Like, okay, we're talking about a community garden, but where are the children? Mm, we're let's we need to bring them into this discussion. Yeah. And so, you know, it, this is a different than a designer. This is like a facilitator of design. Mm. And, and I'm really intrigued with this because I think we're going to build this new world, just project by project, bringing [00:15:00] people together, getting them to think about what they're doing.

[00:15:04] Like I'm working now with a Makerspace. And that's a, a place in the us. I don't know if the rest of the world calls 'em that, but, uh, you know, it has equipment that you could use and I'm really interested in the fiber and part. So convening people to think about, oh, how can we help more people learn how to sew?

[00:15:28] How can we help people upcycle their clothing? And we're having so much fun. Getting together and co-designing these new kinds of activities and it's making a huge difference in our community. It's starting to really get people excited. We have more and more people coming into the space, wanting to get plugged in, wanting to stop buying fast fashion.

[00:15:56] Yeah. Whatever and, and thinking. I can make [00:16:00] my own clothes. And so that's a perfect example of how there are thousands and thousands of places in our lives where we can become these facilitators of co-design.

[00:16:13] Gerry Scullion: So I'm hearing so many similarities and what you're talking about there in terms of design and cultural and transformational programs.

[00:16:24] Businesses that are, they're trying to push design into, into the organizational DNA and they're all struggling. They're all. Well, any of the ones I've been speaking to, or I coach, they don't come to me if they're, if they're killing it, but, um, There's a lot of things there that when you're talking about that, I imagine, um, you you've less control over.

[00:16:47] Okay. So it might be at the macro level where people are teaching, teaching each other, how to sew and, you know, stuff that just happens at the very kind of personal level mm-hmm . [00:17:00] Um, and I think organizations typically have a, have a problem with that when. They can't design for that. It's just, it's, it's a human thing.

[00:17:08] Two people getting together to teach each other something. How do you enable that to occur? Because that's a really tough one.

[00:17:18] June Holley: Yeah. But I, so it's a thing I call clustering. It's like when a network Weaver notice a need. Yeah. People wanna learn how to sew and then they bring together people who are interested in that.

[00:17:35] And they try something out, they do a pilot. So it might be that they say every Thursday, anybody that's interested in mending their clothes, learning about mending is gonna get together. We have an hour and a half just come in that. So, um, I try it, but then the important piece is to [00:18:00] spend time. On talking about how it went.

[00:18:04] Design is not a single event. It, it, it's this ongoing process where you're continually trying things out, maybe mucking it up, looking at what you've just done and saying, well, you know, nobody showed up. So we need to think about marketing. Mm-hmm what are ways that we could get the word out that we're having.

[00:18:29] Mending session on Thursdays. Yeah. And so then the group tries some things out again, they're, co-designing, uh, in a continual process, they try that out. People come and then people come and they don't have enough needles. Yeah. Or, you know, so you have to be constantly looking for opportunities to improve and refine what you're doing.

[00:18:57] And that very process changes [00:19:00] people. Mm. That very process is teaching them how to be more reflective. Yeah. Learn more, not be afraid. A failure, knowing that you can continually improve things and change things. People are changing. They're building a new culture.

[00:19:22] Gerry Scullion: This is in the maker, places that you're talking about in Ohio, correct?

[00:19:25] Yeah. Okay. This is just an example. Absolutely. I know. Yeah. Yeah. So. Is that a program that people sign up to, or is it like a drop in where people can just say this, this cool thing that happens with June and you know,

[00:19:38] June Holley: it can, it's both like we have, sometimes that are like, I'm doing a Saturday afternoon volunteers come in and we take all the fabric donations that have come in the last week and we put them on cardboard pieces and put them on the shelves.

[00:19:56] But, but it's open. Six [00:20:00] days a week. Wow. For anybody to drop in. Yeah. Um, and, and so you have both opportunities.

[00:20:07] Gerry Scullion: So how do you measure, um, the success like of, of the, is it growth? Is it more people or what does that look like in your, in, through your lens?

[00:20:17] June Holley: So this is a really interesting area where a lot of us are thinking about, well, there's new ways that we need to.

[00:20:28] Or, or capture what we're doing. And, uh, we're just starting to think about ways, like one way you can is by having people, basically a survey that, that shows all the people they know, and that then you get a network map and you watch it grow. It's a, it's a beautiful. Um, but there are many other ways that you can back what you're doing.

[00:20:53] And part of it is you need places and spaces, whether it's slack or an email list or [00:21:00] whatever, where people can find out what's going on. You know, we have an Instagram channel yeah. And we're watching that grow. So, you know, but it's not really just about growth. Yeah. It's, it's about the depth of the relationships and that's harder to capture.

[00:21:18] Yeah. But I think part of it is if you notice that people are coming in. They're building relationships, they're doing things. And then they are initiating new activities and that's like the crux of it all. If people are doing that, you know, you've got something that's really

[00:21:40] Gerry Scullion: working. It's, it's like a, um, it's like a cold arms.

[00:21:44] If you don't mind me saying it, like, in terms of almost reflecting back to what I imagine, the sixties and seventies could have been like, because. When I was growing up out, you go at nine o'clock in the morning, in the summer holidays. And we were [00:22:00] out in the fields don't mean to send too idyllic. It wasn't always idyllic where I grew up, but, um, community has definitely shifted.

[00:22:09] And when I look at my own kids, they don't get pushed out the door at nine o'clock in the morning. And those behavioral and social skills are probably not where you'd imagine I was at the same age. How, how are you seeing. The, the effect of the community in terms of social interaction and wellbeing.

[00:22:30] Cause I think that's a huge thing. Yeah. People love

[00:22:33] June Holley: about, yeah. I think there's a huge benefit. It like, like the maker space or we have other things like that happening in our community and, and even in zoom sessions and with lots of juicy breakout sessions. Yeah. You know, people. Want to be interacting with others.

[00:22:53] Yeah. In meaningful ways. Mm-hmm and that's the network Weaver is always looking for opportunities for [00:23:00] that to happen. And because people just like yesterday, uh, two young women that, you know, I, I know through various things, I taught them how to can and make salsa. And they, and so the three of us chopped tomatoes outside and, and chopped garlic and onions.

[00:23:23] And, and then at the end of the day, we had all these lovely jars of salsa. We were building community. We were, you know, I was able to share something that I've been doing for many years. Mm-hmm uh, so it's that kind. Thing where I reached out and they said, oh, we wanna learn how to can. Yeah. And, and you start building community as you're doing that, we talked about all kinds of things in their lives and, you know, just explored a lot of different topics while we're chopping.

[00:23:58] Yeah. Tomatoes,

[00:23:59] Gerry Scullion: I [00:24:00] mean, Some people might listen and kind of go, well, why, why would that be of interest to me? Like chopping tomatoes with, or tomatoes, as we say in Ireland, tomato tomatoes. Yes. Um, why would that be? And I, my, just to, to replay that to people like, you know, um, yes, through the business lens or, you know, organizational lens, they'd be like, well, I couldn't really tell my boss that we're gonna be chopping tomatoes and making salsa set and stuff.

[00:24:26] That's what fosters the connection. That's what fosters the, the meaningful connections. It's not about sitting together and learning how to do an Excel spreadsheet, um, over, you know, hours and hours and hours. What you're talking about there is bringing people together around a shared interest and a

[00:24:42] June Holley: common interest.

[00:24:42] Right. Right. So I do this also around a lot of other topics. Yeah. In fact, Know, things like network weaving where, you know, recently I had some workshops with groups in [00:25:00] Africa who are doing community development. Wow, nice. We were able to come together and hear stories about their local activities and.

[00:25:12] That other participants would be very supportive and help them with challenges. So, you know, that's a different kind of setting, but it's that same thing where you build community, you take the time in every session to help people build relationships. So we do this thing called twosies. And people go off in rooms and they talk in depth about each other.

[00:25:37] They find out what each other's doing. And then when they get together in the small work groups, they know enough of the people. You can have a really productive design session about whatever it is that they're yeah. That they're, they're working on.

[00:25:55] Gerry Scullion: So the twosy thing I've heard, I've heard of something similar to that before, [00:26:00] but it's.

[00:26:01] Creating, uh, trust. Um, that's in my understanding of, of it is what is it about trust? Um, that's so important and it seems like an obvious question, but trust in community, um, you know, what do you see goes hand in hand on that like safe spaces and so forth. Mm-hmm so how, how do you design for that?

[00:26:24] June Holley: and the main thing I think about trust yeah.

[00:26:27] Is helping people learn to accept others. Yeah. Even if they're different and, and, and for people to feel that they are accepted just as they are. Often people think trust is about similarities. And I think that's really dangerous. Yeah. Uh, because we need to be able to trust people who are different from us.

[00:26:51] So giving people space to hear each other's stories and to really [00:27:00] listen, realize that listening, like I just talked to this woman and she said, you know, when. Really talk to somebody else. I don't ask them a lot of questions. I just give them a lot of space and show them that I'm really interested and I'm really listening and they will just spill it all out, whatever they need to talk about.

[00:27:24] And so I think having those spaces, that's something we can all facilitate. I think that one problem with zoom is that people. Put enough space for two Zs, for small groups to meet, because that's where. Relationship building happens if you have more than like three or so, three or four people in zoom together, you're not gonna have that same kind of space where people can really build those deeper, more trusting relationships.

[00:27:57] Yeah,

[00:27:58] Gerry Scullion: that's true. The, the dynamic shifts, the [00:28:00] more. Exponentially, the more people are involved in that group. Um, it's harder for them to get up to speed and I've been guilty of that. You know, given people four minutes in groups at three or four, say, say hello to each other and then pull them back into the main room.

[00:28:12] And when facilitating and people are, oh, it's too short. Like, yeah.

[00:28:16] June Holley: Anyway. Right. It's too short too. People really want that time to dig in with others and find out what do I have in common with this person that we could. Elsewhere after this meeting, because that's the real sign of success is if people get to know each other well enough.

[00:28:35] Yeah. That then they're going to talk, say, Hey, let's, let's do our own session tomorrow or next week. Yeah,

[00:28:45] Gerry Scullion: you met, I'm gonna pull you back to it. I think that you said about 15 minutes ago, um, about mapping out all of the people that are involved, um, How do you do that? And what does it look like and where does it live?

[00:28:58] And [00:29:00] I'd love to see that, um, I might have seen it something similar already as it in Kumo. It was one of the tools that you guys cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm um, but what does that look like at scale? Like is, is that at the, the online network um, thing that's where all the people that are involved with it.

[00:29:17] Well,

[00:29:18] June Holley: I mean, I, I think that, are you talking about people learning how to map their networks?

[00:29:24] Gerry Scullion: So as opposed to everyone going back through you, which would probably send you

[00:29:28] June Holley: right. Send you send, I don't do that. But if they, uh, are interested, there is a group of people that meets like once a month. Okay. To talk about how to learn, how to do that network mapping.

[00:29:40] If you go, there's a network weaving Facebook group. Okay. And if you go on that, you can. See the announcements for those, those sessions. Okay. Uh, right now it still takes some investment of time to learn how to map networks. Yeah. But I'm working with people who are trying to make it. [00:30:00] So if you go onto a discussion place or whatever, and you fill out a profile that automatic.

[00:30:08] Creates a map. Okay. That then you can look at and, and you can do sub maps, uh, people with the same interest. Okay. So that's, that's something. Uh, in pro progress right now. Okay.

[00:30:22] Gerry Scullion: Discussion place. Is that, is that a thing on the website that we can direct people

[00:30:26] June Holley: to? No, just like if anybody has like a discussion board.

[00:30:32] Oh, okay. Uh, like body press or, oh yeah. Something like that, or very cool. You can actually ha set it up so that the it's a network map. Yeah. It's uh, if anybody's interested, they can email me and I can connect them with people that are working on that. Yeah. So they can email me at June Holly. H O L L E Y at Gmail.

[00:30:58] Okay, perfect.

[00:30:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:31:00] Um, I I'd like to wrap up the conversations with something that people can take away in with action. Okay. You mentioned there about two Zs, but, um, people who are working in businesses at the moment and they want to start fostering, uh, a community of change makers internally. And that's something that we're, we're gonna be looking at more, and this is ATD about bringing people together and just regular.

[00:31:22] Conversations and community and stuff. And it would be all part of the new, uh, this is a city college, which I've put up on this is, but what, what are the things that people can do to really start off in this? Like, you know, maybe there's things that can add to their zoom sessions or post zoom sessions or post connections in the office.

[00:31:42] What advice would you give to people to just start in their own journey?

[00:31:46] June Holley: Well, on the network site, there is. Packet of free resources, like 50 free resources. Oh really? That, that have tons of processes [00:32:00] that you can use to start network weaving. So it's www network Yeah. And then there's a resources page and you can download the

[00:32:10] Gerry Scullion: free resources.

[00:32:11] No, I'll put a link to that one in the, in the show

[00:32:13] June Holley: notes. Great. And, and. It has all kinds of activities, like speed networking. Mm-hmm where you just give people a chance to talk with somebody that they don't know. And about a question. Yep. Uh, to doing simple PostIt note mapping, which you can either do online or it face to face.

[00:32:38] Yeah. So there's a lot of very simple activities that you can just add to your. Repertoire. Yeah. That will help people start building those relationships or become more aware of relationships. Nice. And that they. They can help people

[00:32:55] Gerry Scullion: connect. And you do have the, the book, which I've just found on the network, which I was, I was [00:33:00] saying to June before I couldn't get it on Amazon, which, you know, shoot me now.

[00:33:04] Um, but that book up there, introduction to network weaving, which is an practical guide for individuals or groups, interest, and the basic skills for improve their effectiveness of. Building. So that is available up there as well. But you mentioned to me before, and I I'd be doing you a huge disservice if you didn't give a shout out, you're working on a book at the moment.

[00:33:23] And I was like, so excited to hear that, but also how you're going about it. Maybe tell us a little bit more about what you're working on.

[00:33:30] June Holley: Well, so the book is called transformation. Co-creating a world that's good for all of us and I'm writing it on mural, which. Online whiteboard. Yeah. Yep. And I have boxes where I capture links and visuals, because I'm a very visual thinker.

[00:33:50] Yeah. And then I've invited other people to come on and put PostIt notes with smart remarks or yeah. Other resources or [00:34:00] images that they want, uh, and trying to have convenings where. Look at different parts of this together. So I'm trying to figure out a collaborative way to write a book. Yeah. And so far it's been tons of fun.

[00:34:15] Absolutely. Yeah. And if anybody's interested in transformation, feel free to

[00:34:19] Gerry Scullion: contact me. Yeah. Definitely get in touch. And I, speaking of collaborative books and stuff, the only one that I've ever seen it before and have been involved in. Is my, my former business partner is mark and Marcus and Adam who wrote this is service design doing and Yakup as well.

[00:34:32] Of course wrote this book. This is service design doing. And I remember, you know, I got an invite to, to contribute to the book and they're like, we'll be online at, I was in Sydney. I think it was nine o'clock in the morning, my time, which was very convenient. And there was two something people. The, the Google doc at the same time.

[00:34:52] And it was being written and people were commenting and arguing about certain things and it was that's great. Yeah, it [00:35:00] was, it was crazy experience, but, um, It's a really collaborative kind of process. I know, I know in the back end, I've all heard individually, like how hard it was to edit it at the end, like to bring it all back together.

[00:35:11] Cause so many voices and, and so forth. But that sounds like it's a really interesting thing. And anything that this podcast, or this is can help. Just say the word. I know the people listening here. They're probably gonna ping you on an email and say, I don't wanna get involved. So, um, that's great June.

[00:35:27] I'll put a link to all those things in the show notes. Thank you. But honestly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for giving me your time, your energy and your knowledge and your wisdom. And sharing it on this episode that this

[00:35:39] June Holley: is HTD. I love being here. It's been delightful talking with you.

[00:35:43] So there you have it. That's all for this

[00:35:45] Gerry Scullion: episode of bringing design closer. If you like this episode, feel free to visit. This is

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[00:35:57] June Holley: And much, much more. If you're [00:36:00] interested in design and innovation training, feel

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