On Manuel Lima’s website, he mentions “a celebrated voice on UX design and data visualization who has spent the past 15 years leading design teams and building cutting-edge digital experiences at companies like Google, Codecademy, Microsoft, Nokia….”. His first three books were breathtakingly beautiful. If you like data and visualisations, then you are more than likely familiar with one or all of his books.
A number of months ago, Manuel sent me an advance of his latest book, The New Designer and it instantly felt different. I could sense a sea change had occurred and in this conversation that you are about to hear, we discuss the reflective process that Manuel took in the creation of this book.
It’s an awesome book - that is perfectly timed. Many of us are questioning our roles in the creation of service that perpetuate social structures and norms. This book is not just for you, but it’s for everyone you know who is on a journey of self-discovery and purpose.
This was a lot of fun to record and hope you enjoy it!
This transcript was created using the awesome, Descript. It may contain minor errors.
Note: This is an affiliate link, where This is HCD make a small commission if you sign up a Descript account.
[00:00:00] Manuel Lima: I think there's definitely a, a, a natural arc as you get older and more knowledgeable. Yeah. Right. You wanna maybe share your knowledge with others, younger versions of yourself, and again, if nothing else, for them not to go through the same mistakes as you did. Right. Sure. So like, led us to a young self kind of a, a process.
[00:00:17] Manuel Lima: So becoming a mentor teacher, I think those are very sort of interesting pursuits for an individual that's somehow getting a bit older and more knowledgeable.
[00:00:30] Gerry Scullion: Hello and welcome to Bringing Design Closer On. This is eight cd. My name is Terry Scullion and I'm the founder of this eight cd. I'm a designer educator, design coach, and podcaster based in the wonderful
[00:00:40] Manuel Lima: city of Dublin, Ireland.
[00:00:42] Gerry Scullion: Our goal here is to have conversations that inspire and help move the dial forward for organizations
[00:00:47] Manuel Lima: to become more human-centered in their
[00:00:48] Gerry Scullion: approach to solving complex business and
[00:00:51] Manuel Lima: societal problems.
[00:00:53] Manuel Lima: On Manuel Lima's website, he mentions that he's a celebrated voice on user experience design and data [00:01:00] visualization, who has spent the past 15 years leading design teams and building cutting edge digital experiences
[00:01:06] Gerry Scullion: at companies like Google Code Academy, Microsoft Nokia to name, but a few.
[00:01:11] Manuel Lima: His first three books were breathtakingly
[00:01:14] Gerry Scullion: beautiful, and I own all three.
[00:01:15] Gerry Scullion: They're sitting here on the shelf beside me. And
[00:01:17] Manuel Lima: if you like data and visualizations, then you're more than likely familiar with one or of Allan Books. A number of months ago though, Manuel sent me an advance of his latest book called The
[00:01:27] Gerry Scullion: New Designer, and it instantly felt different and I could sense a sea change that occurred.
[00:01:33] Manuel Lima: And in this conversation that you were about to hear, we discussed. The reflective process that Manuel took in the creation of this book. Listen, it's an awesome book that is perfectly timed. Many
[00:01:44] Gerry Scullion: of us are questioning our roles in the creation of services
[00:01:48] Manuel Lima: that perpetuates social structures and norms.
[00:01:50] Manuel Lima: And
[00:01:51] Gerry Scullion: this book is not just
[00:01:52] Manuel Lima: for you, that's fitting you, it's for
[00:01:54] Gerry Scullion: everyone that you know who is on a journey of
[00:01:56] Manuel Lima: self-discovery and purpose. This was a
[00:01:59] Gerry Scullion: load of fun [00:02:00] to
[00:02:00] Manuel Lima: record,
[00:02:00] Gerry Scullion: Manuel. It's absolutely awesome and I hope you enjoy it. Let's jump straight in. Manuel, I am delighted to welcome you to this city. I'm a longtime fan, first time speaker to you.
[00:02:14] Gerry Scullion: Um, but let's start off and we'll, we'll introduce yourself. So maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. I know you've written some incredible books, uh, many of which I've just shown you before, that I own them. Um, but let's start off, where are you based and tell us what you do.
[00:02:30] Manuel Lima: So, um, yeah.
[00:02:31] Manuel Lima: Well, thanks for having me. This is, uh, absolute pleasure, pleasure to be talking to you today. Uh, I'm currently based in Lisbon after almost, I think 11 years living in New York. Nice. So it's fun to be back in a, in a sun field, Lisbon, and the weather is just fantastic here. Uh, uh, so it's good to be back.
[00:02:51] Manuel Lima: And, uh, what do I do? I mean, I think I'm, I I think of myself as a mix of a, a designer and writer. I think I was a writer before. I became a [00:03:00] designer. Writing has been sort of like a, such a inherent way of me making sense of the world around me and putting my thoughts together and emotions since I was an early kid.
[00:03:10] Manuel Lima: Uh, so I think I was probably a writer before I was a designer, but I, I would say, I would put myself into those things. Awesome.
[00:03:19] Gerry Scullion: Your background, like, you know, I know you've, uh, you worked for Microsoft and Google and now you're working with, uh, in Terrace. Mm-hmm. You're probably working remotely, are you? I.
[00:03:35] Manuel Lima: It can be lonely. I have to say I love the whole digital nomad, uh, lifestyle that it allows you to, to have, which is great, you know, no complaints. But yes, it can be lone at times, so you have to balance that a bit. So, yeah, so like you're saying, I spent over the years worked for advertising. You know, I.
[00:03:52] Manuel Lima: Small startups, large tech conglomerates like, uh, Googles and Microsofts of the world. And right now I'm actually [00:04:00] working for a startup based out of Washington, DC mm-hmm. And in Terras, we, what we do is we try to map the global supply chain. We have, uh, 340 million companies in our database and Wow. And it's really painting the picture of how.
[00:04:15] Manuel Lima: Uh, all that supply chain is all interconnected. So if you like networks, if you like systems, if you like data visualization. So when I heard about the company, what was a first approach, uh, uh, about this job opportunity. I was like, this is me. This is my calling. This is like the best fit ever. You know, like leading a design team, working for a company that has like one of the most.
[00:04:36] Manuel Lima: Challenging complex problems to, to deal with today, which is mapping, you know, the global supply chain, which is like millions and millions of companies. And now they're interrelated and now they're interdependent, dependent on things like weather as well. So we are building a lot of new functionality Wow.
[00:04:53] Manuel Lima: Uh, that we map, you know, things like weather events and all that's affecting supply chain. Uh, so it's, it's [00:05:00] really a, a fun, fun, uh,
[00:05:01] Gerry Scullion: device. So is that a service you provide to clients? Like you, you map it like in Terrace, map it, or is it a software? It is. It's a server. It's
[00:05:09] Manuel Lima: a, yeah, it's a, it's a platform, right?
[00:05:11] Manuel Lima: It's, it's a SaaS, right? It's software service. So, It's essentially a product, uh, digital platform that, yeah, you as a customer, you actually have your own, uh, risk score. We can actually give you a score based on your entire supply chain. Ah, okay. So as a customer, let's say, and we have big clients like NASA and many others, so let's say that if you are a client of ours, you get to see your entire supply chain and you feel, and you see like what are the, some of the most riskiest or the safest.
[00:05:40] Manuel Lima: Suppliers in your vast network, and we're not just talking about your direct suppliers, but your supplier suppliers. Your supplier suppliers. So when it comes to like tier one, two, and three and even further down the chain, so you go, you have visibility on like hundreds and thousands of suppliers that are pertaining to you as company.
[00:05:59] Manuel Lima: [00:06:00] Yeah, it's pretty cool
[00:06:01] Gerry Scullion: depending at the zoom level then that you're operating at from an organizational level, surely you might be able to see some interconnectedness between the other organizations. So one organizational level and another organization. You can see the overlap. Is that, is that a potential for in Terrace?
[00:06:19] Gerry Scullion: Uh, you mean like the relationships,
[00:06:20] Manuel Lima: dependencies, the parent child relationship? Yeah. Parent child. Yeah. Absolutely. So we, we see relationships in various ways. One is certainly like between suppliers. Like I, you are supplying something to someone else. Yeah. There's, you know, the parent child, you know, like the ownership.
[00:06:36] Manuel Lima: Uh, so type of relationships as we were saying. So when you go to. Large companies, let's say like Starbucks, you know, of course we have that, the major headquarters. But then you have Starbucks, you know, Irelands, Starbucks, Portugal, Starbucks, Spain. And then there's like multiple, like chains and branches and yeah.
[00:06:53] Manuel Lima: And then we go back to the tree metaphor, right? Uh,
[00:06:57] Gerry Scullion: what's that, honey? Joking. [00:07:00] So you, you have the book of trees, that's one of your, your rights and it, um, It's one of the books that I just showed it on a previous podcast that I record just before this one. And as it's one of the most beautiful books.
[00:07:12] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Uh, I think I own. Okay. Not just in terms of how it's designed, but. In terms of actually how it's being put together. Like it's actually, it's one of those books I showed you another one, visualizing complexity, uh, by Darien Hill and Nicole. Um, another book that's just beautifully put together. Now I wanna ask you a little bit cuz like the, the nature of this conversation, we wanna talk about designers' purpose and designers' impact.
[00:07:35] Gerry Scullion: Your journey is a really interesting one. You've, you've kind of gone through Microsoft and, and Google and now you're at that point and the first couple of books that you produced were very visual intense. Okay. They were probably fair to say, beautiful visualizations in there. Um, and we're like, okay, Manuel knows how to, uh, put a visualization together.
[00:07:53] Gerry Scullion: There's no, no doubt about that. But when I picked up this book and I got the advance, um, there's a lot of words [00:08:00] on it. There's a, so, um,
[00:08:03] Manuel Lima: one of my friends images, not a single one, in fact,
[00:08:08] Gerry Scullion: so one of my friends, when I told him, I said, oh, he's learned how to write. And I, I couldn't stop laughing. I was like, well, I think, I think it's fair to say Manuel Liman knew how to write beforehand.
[00:08:17] Gerry Scullion: It's not an assumption that he bought a keyboard. And, uh, you, you found a dictionary and just started to write in, in your forties what, um, this book. Looks like you've done an awful lot of reflection over the last uh, period of years. I wanna understand your own journey and how you got to this point and why you're writing this book right now.
[00:08:42] Manuel Lima: Yeah, I think there's multiple reasons why, Gary. I think, well, I, I did go through some sort of like a midlife crisis like four years ago. Um, nice.
[00:08:51] Gerry Scullion: I'm going through that at the moment. We should talk.
[00:08:55] Manuel Lima: I, I think, to be honest, like I think, you know, that notion of a midlife crisis might seem. [00:09:00] Maybe it's a little bit negative for for some people.
[00:09:02] Manuel Lima: Yeah. But I think it's actually very positive. It's it because it's, it really, what really scares me is someone that say is in their eighties and saying to me that they never had a midlife crisis. Uh, yeah. And I say this because I think it's really an opportunity for reflection about what you're doing so far in your life and.
[00:09:20] Manuel Lima: Things that you don't want to do anymore, things you want to change, right. So I think that opportunity for reflection, call it a midlife crisis, to call something else. Of course, there are extremes, right? We all know the, the extremes, and those are the ones that, yeah, motorbike we laugh about and make fun of, of course.
[00:09:37] Manuel Lima: But generally speaking, like, you know, stopping midlife, you know, midway to your life and thinking about, Hey, what am I doing as an individual? Like, what makes me happy? You know? Mm-hmm. Uh, how do I run a span the rest of my ears as a productive sort of professional? Right? Yeah. So I think all those are really, really meaningful reflections.
[00:09:54] Manuel Lima: So I went through that process and I think this is when I, uh, I started thinking a little bit about, [00:10:00] you know, this new book. I felt that when the book of circles was done, I kind of finished naturally, like this phase in my life of like creating, not saying that I'm not gonna go back to it, I might Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:13] Manuel Lima: Finishing this phase of like, Really well crafted, uh, very visually intense design systems, types of books. Right. Um, and I think it finished because I started my first book talking about networks. Then I wanted to go to the origin of things that took me to trees, and then I wanted to go even further back because I'm always obsessed about the origin of things.
[00:10:37] Manuel Lima: And that got me to circles because it also got me to a point where I cannot go further back. There's nothing, I mean, yeah, you know, there's, there's really, it, you know, some of the, the most circular engravings you see on rocks, those are some of the earliest sort of like, Uh, depictions, graphical depictions by humans, uh, ever documented, right?
[00:10:56] Manuel Lima: So it's hard to go What's before that? No one really knows for sure, [00:11:00] right? So, yeah, and these are arguably the most popular metaphors. So I felt like it was a chapter in my life, both in terms of the themes that I was approaching, like this visual metaphors, but also the style of books that I was creating, to your point, right.
[00:11:15] Manuel Lima: Really well crafted, visually intense. You know, each book has roughly 300 if not more images, right? So it's really, really ABB with imagery and. And visual delight. Yeah. Um, so I wanted to challenge myself. That was the second reason, like I, I, whenever I got too, too comfortable, like I know that it's time for to make a change.
[00:11:35] Manuel Lima: Right. Yeah. Whatever that is. Right. In terms of like work, in terms of like, uh, writing a book. So intentionally I wanted to actually. At, at some point throughout the writing of this book, I was thinking, you know, should I add a couple of diagrams here and there? It's like, no, I actually want to challenge myself to a point that I'm not gonna include one single diagram or image in this book, and let's see if it works.
[00:11:57] Manuel Lima: You know, let's see if it's six. So that was [00:12:00] another factor, just challenging myself because I really believe, and it is, it does sound a bit of a cliche, but for me it has been a mantra for my life, which is, Really, life begins at the end of your comfort zone. If you don't challenge yourself, you never get to grow as an individual, as a professional, right?
[00:12:16] Manuel Lima: So you have to get out of that comfort zone. And again, it got comfortable to me, I knew how to put, you know, any of my previous books together. It was not a challenge anymore. I, I can't, I could do a fourth one or a fifth one if I wanted. Yeah. Um, but then I think there was also reflection, not just on me as an individual, but also like in my practice and the experience that I had working in places like Google and Microsoft, and.
[00:12:37] Manuel Lima: I was exposed to a lot of great experiences and I learned so much, but I also was exposed to things that were not ideal, you know, from away from our conception of design, what design stands for, the type of impact that we wanna see in the world. And then of course, you know, you just turn on the news and you see everything that's happening around us from, you know, societal impact, uh, [00:13:00] to environmental impact.
[00:13:01] Manuel Lima: And a lot of it is, At the shoulders of designers, we cannot, um, you know, just remove ourselves from the equation and think that we are not responsible because we are. So that reflects all of those factors. Kind of, uh, played a bit of a, a role in coming together with my, with, with this book. And, but I have to say that it's.
[00:13:22] Manuel Lima: Amazing when you have a great editor like I had, uh, at MIT Press, that really always challenging to like go further, you know, explore this even deeper. And I think the book got to its current stage because I had someone like that on the Yes. Pushing, always pushing me, pushing me. And that, that makes a huge difference, I feel.
[00:13:40] Gerry Scullion: So talking about your purpose, like, you know, You wanted to challenge yourself, you identified that the grid edge of your career mm-hmm. Is where the opportunity for, for personal and professional growth lie. How would you describe your own purpose and what, uh, efforts did you go through to help [00:14:00] refine and define that?
[00:14:01] Manuel Lima: Oh, wow. That's a great point. I actually wrote this down. This is how much of an ooc, D I m uh, at some point as I was going through this midlife crisis, right? I had to put down. Almost like as you would do to a customer if you're creating a brand, right? We have like a brand mission division, right? And let's say that if I was, you know, my own sort of brand, right?
[00:14:24] Manuel Lima: But just in the, the process of thinking. Mm-hmm. What do I stand for? What makes me happy? What makes me like, you know, get out of the, the, the bad in the morning, right? Yeah. So my mission, I'm actually reading this out loud to you, Juan. He's
[00:14:38] Gerry Scullion: reading, and I can see, I can see his eyes moving left, right? If he's looking for, looking for the pros folks.
[00:14:42] Manuel Lima: So I, I have a mission, I have a tagline what I need to be happy. We can go over all of those, but my main sort of tagline is, my mission is to use my passion and knowledge to inspire and educate others. To nurture clarity, curiosity, and determination to promote a love for the [00:15:00] unknown and impossible to elevate human culture and encourage new ways of thinking to contribute to a more informed, humble and inclusive world.
[00:15:08] Manuel Lima: That's my mission.
[00:15:10] Gerry Scullion: Very nice. Live. I here the question for you, because I've noticed over the last maybe 10 or 15 episodes that I've done with design leaders, they seem to circle back at some point in their career. And you taught at Parsons? Mm-hmm. In, uh, where is it? I saw some or oh 4, 0 5, or in around those years when, uh, everything was a little simpler.
[00:15:33] Gerry Scullion: What do you think that says about who you were in your earlier years? Were you always aligned to those kind of missions and you somewhat. Kind of grew out of it and then you fell backwards. Mm-hmm. Or what, what can we learn about our past and what, what can we bring from our past into our present lives?
[00:15:52] Gerry Scullion: That's a
[00:15:52] Manuel Lima: great question. I mean, I think there's definitely a natural arc as you get older and more knowledgeable. Yeah. Right. [00:16:00] You wanna maybe share your knowledge with others, younger versions of yourself, and again, if nothing else, for them not to go through the same mistakes as you did. Right? Mm-hmm. So like led us to a young self kind of a, a process.
[00:16:11] Manuel Lima: So becoming a mentor teacher, I think those are very sort of, um, um, interesting pursuits for an individual that's somehow getting a bit older and, and more knowledgeable. I mean, for me, I always got, I think I got into the, like the conference circuit, like really early. Uh, I think I was still in my master's being a master at Parson School of Design in New York.
[00:16:34] Manuel Lima: And I was maybe 26, 27 when I started doing conferences. Okay. And I got a huge kick out of that. It was really, really crazy. It was not so much being in the center that got me going, you know, like being, you know, looks at or, or uh, just being at that in the stage itself. I think there's, there's certainly an appeal to it, but it was actually quite [00:17:00] challenging.
[00:17:00] Manuel Lima: In the beginning I was kind of shy and, you know, speaking in public was, wasn't, was a bit frightening for me. So it took a bit of time to get used to it, but for me it was really the, the sharing of the knowledge, right? And being able to like, touch other people's brains and as a light would go in their heads.
[00:17:18] Manuel Lima: Like that for me is fascinating. And to this day, I can do any project, anything, but nothing beats, you know, when someone sends me a message on LinkedIn or somewhere else and say, Hey, I read this book, or I saw this conference and actually changed careers, or I, I went to this other direction and it changed my life.
[00:17:36] Manuel Lima: It changed the way I looked at design or data visualization. I've had instances like that and for me, wow. I mean, that's fixed volumes. That's like when you are actually touching someone at. Such a level, right? To actually for them to change their life in some substantial way, that's impact. Right? That's really fulfilling, uh, for me as an individual.
[00:17:58] Gerry Scullion: Do you think your purpose at [00:18:00] 24 and 25 was the same as it is now?
[00:18:04] Manuel Lima: Hmm, that's a good question. Um,
[00:18:07] Gerry Scullion: Has it evolved? Because this is a question I have. One of my coachees at the moment, they haven't really considered their purpose and they're going through that process with me and my coaching program, and we're trying to identify their purpose, right?
[00:18:19] Gerry Scullion: And my question to you that comes after that is if your purpose has remained static over those years, when you do define your purpose and it's in conflict with your current position as a designer, What advice do you give to
[00:18:33] Manuel Lima: people? Wow. Well, that's a good, so answering the first question, I think, I think it might have been, I think it might have been the same, it was just a bit more unconscious and chaotic, right?
[00:18:43] Manuel Lima: Mm-hmm. It was just like going with a flow, right? And again, it, it. It required a sort of like self-reflection. Yeah. Cold midlife, crisis, whatever. For you to actually reflect about why you were doing this and why that got you excited. Right. For me, for example, I always [00:19:00] felt that just having a nine to five job was never enough.
[00:19:02] Manuel Lima: No matter how fulfilling that job was. I felt like I needed some sort of like a passion project to keep me going. I don't know, call it again, perfectionist. I'm always like, you know, I like to challenge myself to an extreme. Sometimes that causes me anxiety, but that it was that parallel project, that side project, that passion project that really got me through some of the bad times.
[00:19:26] Manuel Lima: And I also like, you know, my nine to five was always like successful, you know, like, great job. Yes. You know, great places, great salaries, but that was never quite enough, uh, for me. And so I, my recommendation for people is like, always have a passion project because you never know if this passion project, you know, being a podcast, being like a helping someone else, like doing a whole career could actually become your, your full-time job could actually become your thing, right?
[00:19:53] Manuel Lima: Yeah. Um, so I think in a way, It was kind of there, but you know, I, I didn't, I hadn't [00:20:00] reflected enough because you know, when you are in your twenties and your thirties, you're just like, go, go, go, go. You don't really stop to think about why you're doing things. Uh, at least that was the case for me. Um, and your second question was, Gary, remind me again if, if you're
[00:20:14] Gerry Scullion: in conflict with your purpose.
[00:20:16] Gerry Scullion: So if you're working, say in an organization that might be, say, contributing to. Harm on the planet. Um, you might be working for an oil company for argument's sake, and you're like, actually, you know, I don't realize that. Like this is, this is a conflict to me and I'm aware that this conversa, this conversation may come with a, a certain amount of privilege, right.
[00:20:35] Gerry Scullion: On being able to say, get outta that job and get another place. So I'd love to hear your, um, your kind of thoughts on what people can do when you do define your, your purpose and you realize that conflict.
[00:20:48] Manuel Lima: I think that's a great point. I mean, I think generally speaking, it's rare that you find like, you know, a complete 100% conflict and to a point that nothing you're doing makes sense to you.
[00:20:59] Manuel Lima: [00:21:00] Right? Uh, I would hate to be in those shoes. I would hate for someone to be in those shoes because that. That's pretty harsh. That's hard. Yeah. That's harsh reality, right? So I think there's always elements that you are kind of doing that are aligned with your purpose. So my feedback generally speaking is like so double down on those, right?
[00:21:17] Manuel Lima: So I was reading this, this quote the other day of you're never really truly stressed or busy. You're just doing less of the things that you truly love. Right? Mm-hmm. So I think if you are facing this, and if you feel like, you know, maybe your, your nine to five job is not completely aligned with your purpose.
[00:21:34] Manuel Lima: Like maybe start a passion project right? That is aligned with your, with your purpose, let's say. And then see where that goes, right? And try to double down on that and have, you know, things might be coming incompatible. If that's the case, then there's many jobs out there. And many of them are much closely aligned with your, your own purpose and mission, right?
[00:21:53] Manuel Lima: If you have already defined that, so that's, you know, another way to do it, but sometimes even starting off as a passion project. Is [00:22:00] a softer way for people to sort of explore that side of themselves, that they feel it's more close to what they, they wanna
[00:22:07] Gerry Scullion: be doing. I wanna understand a little bit more about your background.
[00:22:10] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Because the, the need for a passion project, I, I align with you on that. It really can. Um, Can feed parts of your life that are missing in your, in your nine to five, as we'd say, where does this come? Where, where does this come from for you? Like this whole kind of, I don't wanna say insatiable, but the whole kind of desire for helping others and working on passion projects and creating books and doing conference talks.
[00:22:37] Gerry Scullion: What was your, your formative years like that really led to this and do you believe that those years, those formative years in your childhood and teenage years, Are kind of still delivering that impact in your later life, not your midlife, not later life. Yeah, yeah,
[00:22:53] Manuel Lima: yeah. There's this, this story that my mom keeps telling me that I was maybe six or eight, you know, and you know, I'm [00:23:00] from a generation probably, you know, not far from you, that we didn't have, you know, phones or Netflix, none of that.
[00:23:08] Manuel Lima: We just played outside with our friends, you know, riding our bikes and whatnot. So while my, all my friends were out there, you know, just playing. Football, soccer, or playing with bags. I was in house just finishing the homework. But not just because it wasn't done already, because it was not perfect enough.
[00:23:25] Manuel Lima: Right. And my mom is like, just go out. You know, your friends are out there. It's like, no, mom. It's not quite right yet. So that was always like space for improvement, which I think shows my kind of like perfectionist tendencies from a early stage. Yeah. But I do remember like this moment when I actually finished, uh, my master's, this was maybe again, I was like 25 or 26, uh, at Paron School of Design and the Master, it's like a two year, uh, mfa, master of Fine Arts.
[00:23:51] Manuel Lima: And it's so intense because you really don't have weekends. Yeah, of course you, you do have fun as well with friends and drink all of that, but [00:24:00] it is pretty intense. There's a lot of disciplines, A lot of it is on the line, notwithstanding the fact that we actually paying a lot of money to be there. Right.
[00:24:07] Manuel Lima: So you have to like Yeah, absolutely. Make sense
[00:24:09] Gerry Scullion: is not cheap.
[00:24:10] Manuel Lima: Yeah, no, it's not cheap at all. So there was a lot on the line. So you have to, you know, really be, be invested and it was hard, you know, all weekends working nonstop. And then I remember vividly, like when I started my first job at rga, when rga RGA is like this.
[00:24:26] Manuel Lima: Large advertising agency. Uh, but back then they only had their Google office, their Google, their New York office. Right, right. Uh, a single office in New York City, uh, which was really fun to hang out with, uh, with all of them there. It was just a very different stage, uh, for, for the company. Uh, and now they're like this bema, they are like, they have like offices everywhere, uh, you know, from Asia to, I mean, everywhere.
[00:24:52] Manuel Lima: Um, So it is fun. Uh, when I started there, that was my first real job. I g I [00:25:00] remember vivid, like my first weekend on the job was like, what is this? I have like two full days that I have nothing to do. I just like get to like hang out. And it was like, this is surreal. And for me, it felt like I was just being spoiled.
[00:25:14] Manuel Lima: I, you know, it's, it's hard to describe, but I felt like I had to do something with that free time. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's weird. And so that's actually when I started, uh, putting together a lot of research that I did during my Masters and that becames, the, the body of work for visual complexity, the website first, and then the book.
[00:25:32] Manuel Lima: Yeah. Right. So from a early stage, I felt like, and I still feel that, and this is actually a good thing and a bad thing simultaneously, so I feel like. Anytime that I have five minutes truly relaxing, I feel guilty somehow that I'm like, Hey, you know, I need to be something that's productive either mentally.
[00:25:52] Manuel Lima: Yeah. Or challenging my body. Going to the gym, going to, you know, challenging my mind doing something that's productive, sending this mail or this [00:26:00] message. So it is a little bit o c d, it, it definitely causes me anxiety. But the positive aspect is that, you know, it keeps you going. It's just like this never ending engine of like, let's do more, let's do this, let's do that.
[00:26:14] Manuel Lima: Right. And, and I think that is certainly something positive. Uh, otherwise I would never have written a, you know, a book to begin with. Yeah. Which is a very stress inducing type of process. Do
[00:26:25] Gerry Scullion: you ever see yourself retiring, Manuel?
[00:26:28] Manuel Lima: No. Absolutely not. I hate the word retiring.
[00:26:32] Gerry Scullion: What's your thought on the framing of retirement, because it's an interesting topic at the moment.
[00:26:37] Gerry Scullion: I'd like to discuss a little bit more with you, like, yeah, what, what are your thoughts on that whole mindset of retiring at 65?
[00:26:44] Manuel Lima: I think I, I really dislike the, the idea of retirement on its own. I think it's one, first of all, I see so much, so many people just like working their asses off, like all through live, waiting for that retirement age to come and then, you know, [00:27:00] they don't, they are no longer healthy to actually enjoy retirement.
[00:27:02] Manuel Lima: That's one aspect that I see. And of course, you, you must have seen cases like that all the time. So this balance of like work and then enjoyment has like separate periods in your life. Okay. I don't think that's the way you should live life at all, because you know, yes, you can get sick and that's probably, as you get older, there's a higher propensity for you to get health issues, right?
[00:27:23] Manuel Lima: Mm-hmm. So by the age of retirement, you're probably gonna get some pain here and some pain there that can actually cause you many issues. Absolutely. That will not even allow you good to the places that you want. Uh, I think that's one aspect that of retirement and I think is, is somehow, Frustrating to me, but then it's all this idea that you get to unplug your brain, right?
[00:27:44] Manuel Lima: Somehow. Like, hey, retirement's, like I don't get to do anything for me doing anything as I, I was just mentioning, scares the hell out of me, scares me more than anything else. Like what do mean, do nothing. I, it would be, and we know again, there's actually, uh, uh, various cases like that and [00:28:00] now we know that it's the worst thing for you to really like die sooner than you should is by.
[00:28:06] Manuel Lima: Disconnecting yourself from, from the world, right? Like do nothing n not feeling productive. I think all of us, you know, men and women, we need to feel like we are contributing to something and mm-hmm. And if that sense of contribution comes solely from your work, then all of a sudden you unplug that drive from your life.
[00:28:25] Manuel Lima: Whew. That's a, that's, that's a perfect recipe for you to like, have mental issues and health issues because those things are also always related. So I think retirement for me, will, will not exist. You know, hopefully I wanna live my life in a very balanced way that yes, work is important, but also like, enjoying work, work, going to the beach, hanging out with my kids.
[00:28:46] Manuel Lima: Those will happen simultaneously throughout my life. Right? Yeah. So someone asked, I was having lunch yesterday with someone, it's like, Hey, are you. Um, in vacation or are you working? It's like, you know, I actually like [00:29:00] to mix them both. You know, every, I try to mix both every single day. So every single day does not feel like it's either one or the other.
[00:29:06] Manuel Lima: You have, you know, work and pleasure. This, this intertwining sort of like, type of, of existence for me is much more fulfilling. Um, but also like, I don't think I, I will stop ever doing the kind of stuff that really gets me going. You know, you saw my tagline, like inspiring others, like either through books, through a podcast.
[00:29:23] Manuel Lima: Maybe I'm gonna one day be courageous isn't, isn't enough to actually do my own podcast. Whatever the means or platform that will exist 20 years from now, who knows my God. Can you imagine 20 years from now we ai how we gonna, what kinda mediums we gonna be using to like inspire other people? Whatever it exists.
[00:29:42] Manuel Lima: 20 to 30 years from now, I hope I will still be there and it'll be relevant. Yeah. Having a sense of of, of, you know, contributing to something, you know, that's gonna be super important for my mental and physical
[00:29:55] Gerry Scullion: health. Yeah, I, I, I watched, uh, an interview recently with, uh, [00:30:00] a niga special, I'm probably not saying that word correctly, but, um, they said that without your purpose, and if you retire, the whole mindset of retire at 65, um, when you retire, and if you don't have that purpose in place, you're three times more likely to suffer from serious illness or death.
[00:30:18] Gerry Scullion: And I was like, wow. Okay. So. The, you see it all the time of people, they retire and then they get sick and, you know, and ultimately can lead to death. Like it's too often. So they only retired a couple of years ago and now all of a sudden, like they died. And I've always, similar to yourself, always had that belief that, you know, I, I don't think I'm ever gonna retire.
[00:30:39] Gerry Scullion: I'm always gonna be doing what I'm doing. Don't know if I'm gonna be doing a podcast when I'm 75, but I think I'll be doing some, something along the same lines. Um, But let's talk a little bit more around impact. Okay. Cause I loved,
[00:30:54] Manuel Lima: sorry, what were you saying? No, just at that point, Gary, I love people like Don Norman, for [00:31:00] example.
[00:31:00] Manuel Lima: In that context, Don Norman, as you know, right? If you are to design, know his work and and himself as, as a, as a design sort of, you know, big figure. I mean, he's now, I think 84 or 85. Running the messages. Yeah. He's like, he just wrote a book actually kind of, you know, there's a very similar vein to ours. We are tr hoping to have a panel together.
[00:31:21] Manuel Lima: Like in Milan, I think this year, uh, is very active of an email, very active on LinkedIn. It's like, it's 85, you know, it's like 10 years older than my dad, and I find I those cases. But again, like I, I, that's how I see myself. Like, not never like, Yo, you know, or I'm, I'm too old to like, do something like that.
[00:31:43] Manuel Lima: You know, it, it really cripples you when you start thinking in those terms, right? Like, I'm retired, I'm too old to do something. It's like, just, just go with it. Just go with the flow. Don't, don't, you know, uh, stop yourself from, you know, aspiring for more. Right? And I think that's really important.
[00:31:59] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:32:00] absolutely.
[00:32:01] Gerry Scullion: You mentioned about your impact, um, in that tagline, I think it was really around having an impact and you mentioned about the, the enjoyment you get from having people say to you that they read the book and change careers and stuff. There was different facets of impact that you define, which I really liked about societal impact, human impact, business impact, um, which impact.
[00:32:25] Gerry Scullion: Excites you the most, um, and you know, how does that align to the purpose?
[00:32:31] Manuel Lima: That's a great point. So, I was debating a lot about how to, you know, organize the book initially. Mm-hmm. You know, I, at some point I gravitated towards this idea of myths, right? Like myths that were debunking, deconstructing, right?
[00:32:48] Manuel Lima: Yeah. There are kind of like really shackles, right? There are really shackling, uh, designers from achieving their true greatness, right? And, and impact, impact that they. Think they deserve [00:33:00] and I divided between personal impact, societal impact, and environment impact. You could argue that the first section, personal impact, was perhaps not as urgent or needed compared to like societal impact.
[00:33:16] Manuel Lima: Absolutely. And impact, but you have to start with yourself, right? You, I mean, it's like again, putting your mask on on a plane, right? It's. You have to like be good with yourself, with your purpose, with your sense of mission, understanding your capabilities, your skills, right, and how far you can go before you can do anything for others.
[00:33:35] Manuel Lima: Be humans, society or environment. Right? So that, that first sort of like section was really important to me. Of course, environmental is a given, you know, and I spent a lot on that. Like, why we need to think more in systems, you know, like there's no local design anymore. But I would actually say societal impact is, is at the moment the, the thing that scares me the most [00:34:00] because it.
[00:34:01] Manuel Lima: And I think another fact that I, you know, got me to write a book is the negative in impact that we are having on people's minds through technology. Yeah. And it got me thinking, and, and not just human adults, but, but kids, you know, and I have two young girls and I'm very scared. Not just, of course, the, the crazy teenage years that are upon me, that will end.
[00:34:23] Manuel Lima: It happened with multiple generations, but like, What technology's causing to young teenagers, right? Especially girls, right? The rate of suicide, you know, like body image, all those issues, like I'm very scared of that. And many designers are actually behind a lot of the things that, uh, are causing things like depression, you know, rates of, of, of anxiety and teens, you know, and even suicide.
[00:34:47] Manuel Lima: So that worries, that worries me a lot. Um, and that's, you know, one of the, the, the sections that I had is about our technology can be, uh, and design, of course, not necessarily, uh, [00:35:00] um, a source of good, right? Uh, it can actually be a, a source of, of, of many evil things.
[00:35:06] Gerry Scullion: So what are you doing about this? Like, and feel free to, to dodge this question, like, you know, but for someone who's gone through, um, a sort of a, an evolution, I guess over the last, God you've been around for nearly 20 years, practicing nearly as long as me, but, um, How do you, how do you remain centered in your purpose?
[00:35:27] Gerry Scullion: Uh, like what, what, what are these steps that you're using to, to align yourself to that purpose in your career? Because you're in the new role? I think maybe it's a year and a half. Is it something in interest? So, um, you mentioned there that you, you had to see change and you, you've got a, a new role, but I wanna understand a little bit more around how you make sure that you're still aligning to that purpose.
[00:35:54] Manuel Lima: Well, so I, I continue to do my, my, or what I, I would say is, is my passion project, right? So, you know, [00:36:00] writing books, attending conferences, and that gives me a lot of joy for sure, right? Uh, but then in my nine to five job, uh, I also get a lot of joy out of that, you know, spec specifically just collaborating with people.
[00:36:11] Manuel Lima: We always look back at, at a lot of the things we did in our past jobs, and I think for the most part, It's not so much the projects we worked on, but it's the people we worked with, right? Yeah. That, that are the ones that really, you know, we have fond memories of. So I think that is a, a really strong component.
[00:36:27] Manuel Lima: But, you know, going back to your question, I think, I think I would say two things. One is questioning and awareness. So I. Awareness is really important because sometimes designers, you know, I see this all the time, especially young designers, they, they leave college and they wanna do all this great impact and then they get placed in, you know, one of the tech giants and they find themselves working a very mini school type of problem.
[00:36:52] Manuel Lima: They got really frustrated because they're not doing what they were, uh, meant to be doing according to them, but [00:37:00] also because they don't have a lot of visibility on, on the, the, the larger thing that they're actually creating. Right. So I ask a lot of these questions in the book because I'm fascinated by the why.
[00:37:08] Manuel Lima: I always ask the why. Yeah. So, yes, it's easy to say why is this like a moral failing on the part of designers worldwide, right? And it's not just, again, uh, fashion designers, you know, contributing, you know, creating all this, you know, seasons for fast fashion. It's not just. Industrial designers, which is actually my background, creating all these evil, you know, products, plastic bottles and yeah.
[00:37:31] Manuel Lima: All of that. Yeah. It's also digital designers. We have a huge responsibility and it's too easy for us to like point a finger to someone else when I think every design role has some responsibility, uh mm-hmm. Both for society and environment. And so I think it starts with awareness. Awareness that a, sometimes you might not actually be looking at the pic picture sometimes the way, even the way that you are being evaluated, In terms of like, what do you actually get to launch?
[00:37:56] Manuel Lima: How many things you get to launch versus how many [00:38:00] things actually landed. Right. How many things are actually affecting society or the environment in a good way. Mm-hmm. Those things are never considered. Right. So I, I went, I worked at places where I. Your salary, your bonus is in exclusively dependent on of how many things you put out.
[00:38:17] Manuel Lima: It doesn't matter. These things are good or bad, it's just the the number, right? Yeah. And to continue launching, you know, design solutions into like this vacuum of consequences is absolutely responsible, right? So principal, be awareness, irresponsible, irresponsible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So be aware of this, like traps, these are mental traps, these are biases.
[00:38:39] Manuel Lima: Sometimes even an unconscious bias on your part that you're not really even looking, oh, you might be contributing to something that's not, that doesn't have the type of positive impact that you wanna have in the world. Right. So can I just
[00:38:49] Gerry Scullion: stop you on that point? Like in, in, in the, uh, the example you're given there about working for an organization that contributes and putting things out in a vacuum and you're rewarded for that, [00:39:00] that behavior.
[00:39:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What kind of things would you advise people to do and what did you do? Because I can probably identify the organization that you're talking about from your LinkedIn. What, I won't say it, but
[00:39:13] Manuel Lima: anyway, exclusive to them. It's, it's all, you know, Silicon Valley as operated. So it's, it's the mindset. It's the mindset, you know, it's, it's what is it?
[00:39:22] Manuel Lima: Build and, you know, break fast, you know, go, yeah. Fail fast, break things and fail fast. And it's all this, yes. I mean, there's certainly. Good aspects of it. Yeah, we need to trial and fail and learn and, and do it again. But I think sometimes, you know, we, we are creating things that are truly detrimental to society and, and the human mind, especially when we are deciding intentionally to explore the human mind for for profit.
[00:39:46] Manuel Lima: Yeah. And that's why we do often.
[00:39:49] Gerry Scullion: But on that point, Manuel, like people within organizations, they do one or two things. They try and challenge that within the organization or they leave. Mm-hmm. Um, now in terms of challenging it, [00:40:00] people might say, well, I'm only one designer, as with within an organization that's a quarter of a million people, what, what chance do I have to kind of start that conversation off and evoke the movement within the organization?
[00:40:14] Gerry Scullion: Do you feel it's possible for a designer to have that, uh, potential to start the movement? It's a loaded question and you better say, yeah, yeah.
[00:40:24] Manuel Lima: Well, I'm not, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and say, yes, it's absolutely easy. I know it's not easy. No, but of course it's possible. We have to believe it's possible because, you know, if.
[00:40:35] Manuel Lima: There's been any social movement that we've, we, we are, we appreciate from the past. It started normally with one single person, right? Yeah. And those ideas contaminate others and spread and change happens eventually, right? Mm-hmm. Any big social movement that's happened, you know, from women's rights to like racial inequality, like all those things start with a single idea with a single person and things.
[00:40:58] Manuel Lima: So even by looking [00:41:00] at the past, you know, you don't have to be sort of, uh, Dismissive of this completely because even from looking at the past, we know it's possible. It has happened multiple times in, in our history. But of course it, it is challenging. But I think what it, it's better to be aware that these things are happen and, and then try and then if you fail, that's fine.
[00:41:23] Manuel Lima: You can move somewhere else. There are many jobs out there. I was just even on another podcast the other day. They are, fortunately today, you're not constricted to this type of role. Right? When I, you know, when I started working, Advertising was one of the few places that actually alloted some creative output and paid really well.
[00:41:41] Manuel Lima: It's not the case anymore. You have countless of startups actually doing great environmental work that are paying equally as well as many large Silicon Valley companies, right? Mm-hmm. So you have options today. You are not contrived to like just do this, right? Yeah. Because the worst that can happen is when you turn [00:42:00] off your brain.
[00:42:01] Manuel Lima: Right when, and this is like the, a great form of moral disengagement, and this is what the big companies want. It's like they want you to be morally disengaged from the discussion. Just do your job, don't question. So it's being, again, awareness and questioning. You have to question like, why are we doing this for, like, who's purpose are we serving?
[00:42:20] Manuel Lima: Like how is this helping humans like. How are they, how is this being used? Like what kind of app will this create? Are we researching like the long term effects of this, like question nonstop? Because if you are contributing to something, it's in your duty, it's your your own sort of responsibility to actually question how this is gonna be used and what's the effect that this will cause in the world Outside.
[00:42:45] Manuel Lima: Absolutely. Both. Absolutely. Socially and environmentally. So question is at the ultimate form of ethics, you cannot have ethical behavior if we're not questioning. Yeah. So when people say, and you see this all the time, that's another thing that I, I don't know if you want to talk about this, like Yeah. [00:43:00] The hiring of the hiring of ethicists by Silicon Valley is one thing today that really, really, I'm highly against.
[00:43:09] Manuel Lima: And I'm Ali against because first of all, it, it really is a facade. It's a smoke screen. Yeah. Because as soon as these people come in, they are put literally in the corner. Metaphorically in the corner where they don't have a lot of control over anything, um, on making any change. Yeah, eh, when they start investigating, uh, they actually are pushed aside or actually fired.
[00:43:34] Manuel Lima: This has happened multiple times over the past years, right? Actually kept fired by doing their jobs, but the worst, more pernicious fact, and again, another form of moral disengagement is. When these are used for others not to think, not to reflect upon what they are actually doing, right? So this is something that, yeah, you come to me, Gary, as you and as a designer say, Hey, I don't actually agree with this.
[00:43:59] Manuel Lima: This [00:44:00] is, we are not doing the right thing. We should consider this. And then the, the sort of, the rationale is you don't have to worry about that. We have someone else to worry for that, to worry about that for you. We have a, we just hired an ethicist. You know, it's that responsibility, a fair job, responsibility to worry about ethics.
[00:44:17] Manuel Lima: That is really, really scary because all of a sudden what you're told is like, just go back to your desk, go back to coding, designing whatever you do, and let the aist worry about ethics when it's absolutely wrong. Ethics belongs to all of us. Yeah, absolutely. All of us. And we have that
[00:44:32] Gerry Scullion: responsibility.
[00:44:33] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. One of my final questions, Manuel, and then you can go and get your lunch in the middle of the day. Um, I, I, I was speaking to somebody recently, uh, in my own personal network, and they said that you're the sum of your five friends. Mm. And I really loved that because like who you surround yourself with is really, really important for your own mental health, your own stimulation, for your personal and professional growth.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Gerry Scullion: Is it okay if you give us a shout out to the five people that you believe, uh, that you are the sum of.
[00:45:08] Manuel Lima: Ooh, I, it's hard to always name names. Oh, first of all, because I will always forget someone. Your mother, your mommy.
[00:45:15] Gerry Scullion: Your Gary, Mrs. Mrs. Lima is listening. She is waiting for you to say her name. Exactly.
[00:45:23] Gerry Scullion: Exactly. Mommy, Lima. It's very easy. You just say, mommy,
[00:45:27] Manuel Lima: if you, if you, if you, this is actually one. Huge trigger for anxiety. For me, it's this one mama. Yeah. Putting names on public and then forgetting about some, but, uh, huge trigger. But I will tell you this, like I, I don't know if this is the same, if others, you know, uh, uh, feel the same way, but I tend to look for friends.
[00:45:48] Manuel Lima: There are somehow, Different from me or, uh, I, I think there's a form of admiration, I think in the enemy relationship. My mom actually told me this a while back, and I think the more I [00:46:00] think about it, it, there's definitely a lot, an element of truth that every relationship, no matter what it is, friendship, uh, love, relationship, um, mentor, mentee, whatever it is there is to there, you have to have a degree of admiration for this other person.
[00:46:17] Manuel Lima: And when, you know, it starts cracking, that's when relationships start kind of like, uh, distancing themselves and from each other. It's when that admiration starts cracking, you know? Mm-hmm. So for me, admiration can be someone that has a traits that I don't have. Like, let's say maybe someone that's really calm, that has it's really soft spoken voice.
[00:46:37] Manuel Lima: I, I love people like that because I'm not like that. So I tend to like gravitate towards people that. Don't have the same traits as I do. Right. Have no emotion, no robots, basically. That's
[00:46:50] Gerry Scullion: why
[00:46:52] Manuel Lima: my, all the, the AI bots are my friends. I'm gonna, when he was saying about her, [00:47:00] her, yeah. Chatt is my best friend.
[00:47:03] Manuel Lima: Um, never
[00:47:04] Gerry Scullion: argues, never disagrees. Never disagrees. But love You're great, Manuel. That was your night last night. You slapped really well.
[00:47:14] Manuel Lima: I know, but you know, it's, it's hard to put people on pedestals and I, I, that's some something that I try never to do, uh, at all, because I think we are all humans, we are all flawed.
[00:47:24] Manuel Lima: But I think there's a, an ongoing, an ongoing struggle in life. And I think for me it's the ultimate struggle. Yeah. Which is having control over your own mind. Right. Having, because it's the only thing you can really, truly have control over. It's your thoughts, your perceptions of others, of yourself, um, you know, the way you look at the world.
[00:47:44] Manuel Lima: Like all of this is all in here in our own brain, right? Mm-hmm. So having some control over it. Is absolutely empowering. So I'm very much fascinated by people that apparently, and I know sometimes it's just an appearance because [00:48:00] inside they are like as chaotic as we are. Yeah. But I do tend to gravitate towards people that are, and I think calm is even somehow a reflection of that.
[00:48:10] Manuel Lima: Just, you know, being, you know, positive, true to themselves, you know, at ease. You know this at ease with the present. Not anxious, not. Uh, you know, frustrated, not aggravated, but like that sense of inner peace for me is something that I really admire in August. Yeah. Okay. Um,
[00:48:30] Gerry Scullion: so very good. Yeah. You kind of dodge the question, but I'm gonna let you know.
[00:48:35] Gerry Scullion: But anyway, uh, Manuel, we're, we're at the end of the episode. I'm conscious of the time as well, but, um, the book is coming out soon. When is it out in May? Is it?
[00:48:45] Manuel Lima: is. May the second. May the second.
[00:48:47] Gerry Scullion: May the second. Why you, why didn't you put it out in May the fourth?
[00:48:50] Manuel Lima: It, it could have been May the third because that's actually my birthday.
[00:48:53] Manuel Lima: That would've been the
[00:48:54] Gerry Scullion: May 4th be with you. You could have, you could had Star Wars launch. Can you imagine [00:49:00] MIT now and say, we're changing it to the fourth. We missed an opportunity. May the fourth be with you. This new mission,
[00:49:05] Manuel Lima: the new designer. It's like success guaranteed. Come on May 4th.
[00:49:09] Gerry Scullion: Oh, the marketing team.
[00:49:10] Gerry Scullion: And mit, you're like, we missed it. No. Um, I'll put a link to the book. Is there, is there uh, a place where people can pre-order?
[00:49:19] Manuel Lima: Absolutely. I mean, of course Amazon, all the big sellers, of course m MIT press, you can just go there and you can pre-order. Yeah. And we are just like, I guess maybe two weeks away from it, which is really exciting.
[00:49:29] Manuel Lima: Yeah,
[00:49:29] Gerry Scullion: absolutely. So this will probably be out a little bit after that. Um, yeah.
[00:49:34] Manuel Lima: I just got a u p s email this morning that I think my, actually, my hard copies are coming my way, so I'm gonna get them pretty soon. I'm very excited
[00:49:43] Gerry Scullion: about it. Very nice, very nice. Well, look, Manuel, thank you so much for giving me the time.
[00:49:47] Gerry Scullion: I know you're a busy man. Um, and really best of luck with the book. It is. I, I'm halfway through it and I'm really enjoying it. Um, so, you know. Come back on the podcast when you have your next one, or if you [00:50:00] wanna discuss more things related to the book, you're always welcome here. And this is Hey City. So thanks so much for your time.
[00:50:05] Gerry Scullion: Thanks Gary. Appreciate it.
[00:50:10] Gerry Scullion: And there you go folks. I hope you enjoyed that episode
[00:50:12] Manuel Lima: and if you enjoyed it and want to listen to more, why not visit?
[00:50:15] Gerry Scullion: This is hate city.com where you can learn more about what we are up to and also explore our courses while it's through there. Thanks again for listening.
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