Bringing Design Closer with Gerry Scullion

Peter Löfgren 'Design at scale'

John Carter
October 17, 2022
42
 MIN
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Peter Löfgren 'Design at scale'

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Hello and welcome to Bringing Design Closer. Our goal is to have conversations that inspire and to help move the dial forward for organisations to become more human-centred in their approach to solving complex business and societal problems.

Before we jump in, I have a favour to ask. Ive been creating content for This is HCD for over 5-years or so, all for the love of sharing knowledge to the global design community. One thing you could do is leave a review (preferably a 5-star one!), as it helps us grow our community - every little helps.

Even if you don’t review, you can go one better by telling people you work with about the podcast.

We launched a space on ThisisHCD.com where you can take courses now on visualisation, design research and more.

In this episode I speak with Peter Lofgren, Head of Design for Service NSW in Australia. We chat about Design at Scale, what this means, and how Peter has approached his work across several large organisations, Atlassian, ABC, Westpac and now Service NSW.

Let’s jump in...

Episode Transcript

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[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hello, welcome to Bring In Design Closer. Our goal is to have conversations that. And help move the dial forward for organizations to become more human centered in their approach to solving complex business and societal problems. Now, before we jump in, I have a favor to ask. I've been creating content, as I've mentioned before, in previous episodes for over five years of the love of sharing knowledge to the global design community.

[00:00:49] Gerry Scullion: Now if there's one thing that you can do for me and for the network is leave a review, preferably a five star one, as it helps grow our community and every little helps. Now, even if you [00:01:00] don't leave a review, if you find it too difficult to do that, you can go one better by telling your friends or your colleagues all about.

[00:01:06] Gerry Scullion: This is Eight City, the podcast and the trainings as well available at this is eight city.com. Now, in this episode, I speak with Peter Larin, a long term friend of mine from a. Who's now the head of Design for Service New South Wales. We out about design at scale and what this means and how Peter has approached his work across several large organizations and roles that he's held at Atlassian abc, which is the Australian Broadcast Corporation, Westpac Bank in Australia, and now Service New South Wales.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: So let's jump. Peter Kin are very warm. Welcome to, This is acd. How are you doing? I'm pretty good. How are you? I'm not so bad. We've, uh, been speaking for the last 30 to 40 minutes of catching up for a lot of the listeners out there. Um, I've been friends with Peter for, uh, a number of years. Peter arrived in Australia, we're just chatting there eight years ago and, um, you know, I did meet him off the [00:02:00] plane, but I met him shortly after it and we, we became friends over those.

[00:02:05] Gerry Scullion: But Peter, for anyone listening today, maybe tell them a little bit about yourself, where you're coming from and what, where you're currently working and what you do. Yeah,

[00:02:13] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. Thanks.

[00:02:23] Peter Löfgren: In Australia now currently on the central coast, which is for people that know, it's kinda like a. Hour and a half trained right. From Sydney. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, currently the role that I occupy is

[00:02:43] Peter Löfgren: mm-hmm. . We doing this job now for two years, and I'm really, really quite remarkable. Great place to do it. Yeah, it's a

[00:02:54] Gerry Scullion: good place to do for, for anyone who's not familiar of what, um, how [00:03:00] Australia's set up. Uh, Australia has got many states. Um, New South Wales is the biggest state, I believe. I think it is.

[00:03:07] Gerry Scullion: Maybe wa might give it a run for its money. But in terms of, um, how service New South Wales sits within government, maybe you could tell us a little bit more around how it's structured and what kind of services it provides to the people of New Set Wales. Yeah,

[00:03:23] Peter Löfgren: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. New South Wales, uh, is one of the states and, and, uh, there's agencies like government and uh, uh, We started a cluster called Department of Customer Service.

[00:03:43] Peter Löfgren: There might be too much detail in all this. It's, anyway, and, uh, it's a cluster. Cluster of also works with other agencies outside the cluster

[00:03:58] Peter Löfgren: or trading [00:04:00] revenue, Department of Common Communities and Justice. These are typical things and. What our customers, the resident of New Wales come to us for, For example, driver's license, do registration a.

[00:04:21] Peter Löfgren: The value proposition of, of wealth, especially governments level, there would.

[00:04:37] Peter Löfgren: From New South Wales. Okay. So that's basically

[00:04:39] Gerry Scullion: kinda a bit of a Yeah, it's a bit like gov.uk in the UK for um, for people in New Set Wales effectively, cuz New Set Wales. And I've just done a bit of a Google there and wa is definitely the nu the biggest state in Australia for anyone listening there and they were shaking their heads, it may wa is definitely the biggest, um, state in [00:05:00] Australia.

[00:05:00] Gerry Scullion: Um, New Set Wales, I think, uh, is the second, or, or no, it's actually, it's the fourth, believe it or not. Queensland, South Australia and then New Set Wales. So we were miles off Peter, but, um, tell us a little bit more around the, the team that you have, um, within Service New Set Wales and how many people and what, what kind of disciplines you have within the.

[00:05:21] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, happy to do that. And by the way, uh, Service New South Wales is an channel proposition, so it also has like, you know, in embarrassment in uk there similarities there. But we also have, like, you know, you have shop fronts, people can walk. Oh, that's right. Yeah, Yeah. And then they can also. Of course. Yeah.

[00:05:42] Peter Löfgren: And, um, yeah, so it's, it's a true omnichannel environment. We also have even service centers Yeah. That we

[00:05:59] Peter Löfgren: just like, [00:06:00] you know, into, into rural, rural areas. We can also roll, roll.

[00:06:03] Gerry Scullion: I do remember that. I remember it was always a good experience. There was one in Kent Street, maybe not Kent Street, I'm, I'm forgetting George Street, maybe in, in the city in Sydney. And from a service design perspective, it was always a great place to go and just experience it because that whole omnichannel experience in one physicality.

[00:06:23] Gerry Scullion: Um, was always, you know, a really positive experience for me cuz he just knew the same place you had to go and get your, your retro sorted or if it was something through your license, whatever, you could go to that one place. So, um, it's good that you pointed out the omni child experience and. Speaking of the service design aspect of your role within Service New, So Wales, I just wanna give a big shout out to the team at Service New, so Wales, cuz you just won a, a huge award.

[00:06:49] Gerry Scullion: Uh, and it's testament to the work that's going on at Service New, so Wales from Good Design. Um, so congratulations to you and the team, Peter.

[00:06:57] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. Thank you. Really appreciate [00:07:00] that. It was really good team

[00:07:16] Peter Löfgren: and the like. Yeah, we, we received a good. Australia in the design, got the gold award there. Awesome. And something called

[00:07:34] Peter Löfgren: interesting, successful,

[00:07:40] Peter Löfgren: very quickly. Cause I mean, this was on the back side of, of the. The pandemic. We, the government wanted to the economy again. Yeah. People and moving and going restaurants and cafes and like doing enter [00:08:00] kind voucher available for. Uh, uh, the resident of New South Wales and you could, uh, get those voucher and them available in mobile device.

[00:08:18] Peter Löfgren: You could

[00:08:23] Peter Löfgren: Right. Really like experience. And, uh, it had never been done before. The first time ever we did anything like this. I

[00:08:34] Gerry Scullion: was gonna say, I hadn't heard it sounds. Um, I know there's, it's something in Dublin I haven't heard of. What would be a fantastic initiative to roll out to. You know, the pubs and the restaurants in, in Ireland, uh, and probably the UK as well.

[00:08:48] Gerry Scullion: I think everyone was saying they would love vouchers to go out and experience restaurants and experience new food as well. And it's, it's great that it was an, um, you, you, you did the, the, the sort of the [00:09:00] paper based vouchers as well for people who aren't smartphone enabled. It sounds like that was something that was really important to the team at Service New, so Wales.

[00:09:09] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, absolutely. And one thing also to remember that we needed to also provide the capability for the business to voucher. So it wasn't only for the customer and there was like 1 billion that.

[00:09:30] Peter Löfgren: That's amazing. There's a lot of

[00:09:31] Gerry Scullion: flood of money. Yeah. And how did you determine, how, how did you determine the, the amount of vouchers that could be used in a restaurant in one sitting and stuff? Was that something that was at the restaurant level or was that something at the, the initiative level?

[00:09:46] Peter Löfgren: It was in level

[00:09:57] Peter Löfgren: Cafe[00:10:00]

[00:10:04] Peter Löfgren: from that perspective.

[00:10:06] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So, and um, is that something that's gonna be continued to rolled out or has it expired? Uh,

[00:10:12] Peter Löfgren: that that program has already finished, but on the back of that program,

[00:10:21] Peter Löfgren: basic, so. If you have a small child, you can get to swimming lessons, uh, using a similar

[00:10:31] Gerry Scullion: kinda approach. Yeah, I was gonna say the framework be reapplied into lots of different areas.

[00:10:37] Peter Löfgren: Exactly, exactly. We're doing that. So we're providing, we developing something that,

[00:10:46] Peter Löfgren: um, um, for, for multiple agencies, so this is. Uh, it's not only Treasury, but there could be Office of Support, for example, that role something. So, Yeah. Or Department of Education or, or something

[00:10:59] Gerry Scullion: like that. [00:11:00] Absolutely. So, kudos to the team. It sounds like it's a, it's a great initiative, but we're gonna focus a little bit more on, um, you know, your own career today, Peter, because, uh, when I got to know you, You were at Atlassian.

[00:11:12] Gerry Scullion: Um, and then after Atlassian, you went to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, the abc, uh, in Sydney, um, where you worked for a number of years and then you went to Westpac. Um, and then in between that there was a couple of roles, but now you're at Service New, so Wales, so you've had a number of pretty major design roles.

[00:11:31] Gerry Scullion: The last decade, I'd say. And we're gonna talk a little bit more around design at scale and your experience of working within and in those organizations about trying to implement design at scale. Um, which organization do you feel that you've had the most experience and the most challenges? I guess, uh, trying to implement design, uh, approaches to the organiz.

[00:11:57] Gerry Scullion: So I think

[00:11:58] Peter Löfgren: there are similarities and [00:12:00] then differences. I way there's more like similarities. Um, I think you on the challenge are more lines of, of how do you establish. Design in in the organization to be player.

[00:12:38] Peter Löfgren: The problems themselves, uh, might be different in nature, but then, then how you need to approach has a lot of similarities. So I think it's really about demonstrating the value that you find can bring as a collaborative force. Not so going in and saying that, like, you know, like if we do design everything, we'll Beana, [00:13:00] um, but it's about like, you know, going in and saying that like, you know, you here to collaborate.

[00:13:05] Peter Löfgren: Let's work on this together and this is what can bring to the table. Is something that in those, those environments that you mentioned?

[00:13:15] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, and it's important, It's important to point out that all those organizations that we've just listed have, uh, legacy in terms of design and they've, they've used design successfully for.

[00:13:30] Gerry Scullion: You know, 20, 30, 40 years in the ABC's case, probably even longer. Um, so it's not like you're starting at, you know, the grassroots level or like the bottom rung in the, the Danish design ladder or anything like that. But when you go into an organization, say Service New Set Wales, at the moment, again, they've had, um, a lot of experience with CX and service design over the years.

[00:13:53] Gerry Scullion: Um, what does it mean design at scale within the lens of service new? So, [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Peter Löfgren: So, um, I would say that one thing is that you understand the environment where you operate, but this is equally also then you apply for Westpac. Um, so what is, what is the, what is the value chain? How does it, like, how is it determined?

[00:14:15] Peter Löfgren: Uh, follow the money? Where does it describe? It's very much about the relationship between the, the government is how the work is determined coming in, how you kinda commence with discovery. And who you, who, who do you do the discovery with? You need to involve the agencies. You need to involve also, like, you know, the, uh, frontline staff, digital channels and, and so forth in the discovery phase.

[00:14:43] Peter Löfgren: And then go into and develop and deliver. So it's very much about collaboration. On scale. Yeah. Because it's a simple thing. If you think about like, you know, if you be in a smaller agency or a smaller organization Yeah. You basically know everyone there. [00:15:00] Yeah. And you don't need, can see basically everyone in and you know everyone by name.

[00:15:06] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. You really need to spend much more time in establishing, uh, how you collaborate. Who are the people, who should you involve, who should be consulted, who should be inform. Who are really accountable Yeah. Are really responsible in the mix. And that's the, that's the key difference. You does make sense?

[00:15:28] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. It, it totally does. But when you're working in an organization, say like Westpac, where. I think we mentioned there's 50,000 employees there, and there's gonna be people in there that have design in their title that may not actually be designers. And how do you identify, um, all of those people, first of all, and yeah, I guess maybe start off with that, like how do you identify the designers within the organization that could effectively be part of [00:16:00] the, the broader tribe, so to speak.

[00:16:04] Peter Löfgren: That's a good question. I mean, always when I go in new environment, I start by like, you know, identifying conversations. People, Yeah. Across different business areas. Leaders, engineers, leaders, like, you know, frontline staff, go through the organization, quite methodic. Uh, and, and, and, and use those conversations to identify who are the people mm-hmm.

[00:16:35] Peter Löfgren: and, and what is important for the organization.

[00:16:39] Gerry Scullion: Do you map those conversations out? Is that something that at a scale like Westpac and service News at Wales, I, I would see huge value in a visualization of those kind of people. Um, how do you handle. That in terms of being able to visualize and manage them.

[00:16:58] Gerry Scullion: I

[00:16:58] Peter Löfgren: mean, I do a [00:17:00] stakeholder math usually around it. Um, and then I also like, you know, I emphasize the, the information so that I try to identify common themes that I see across, and also like areas of opportunity where I could step in and, and help out. Yeah. I also try to avoid, especially when go in as a new person, um, to, to draw too conclusions.

[00:17:24] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, and come with recommendations, but I would rather like hold back and try to understand the environment properly before, before like, you know, doing recommendations. So having that interpret, you know, that we really like and do something that's really important.

[00:17:44] Gerry Scullion: Have you any experience of working with organizations who they may believe that they already have design at scale, and you're coming at it from a different perspective where you, you may feel that, you know, you're at a different level to [00:18:00] them, um, where they perceive they're at versus where they're actually at.

[00:18:04] Peter Löfgren: Uh, yes, I would say so.

[00:18:07] Gerry Scullion: That's a bit of a trick question. .

[00:18:09] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, so I mean, you could, you could turn around and ask the question, are there many companies that

[00:18:22] Peter Löfgren: they're like human center, the customer center, But then when you double click, can you go in and then you start to ask questions. When did you actually conduct research? The customers last time? Yeah. Or when did you meet with a customer and or what is that, that based on, uh, your assumption that we're talking about, is it based on, on insights of some sort

[00:18:47] Gerry Scullion: or a poster on the wall?

[00:18:49] Gerry Scullion: Exactly. That's right. Exactly. It's, it's too often that, you know, the, the cool offices and the cool posters on the wall that, um, Tell the [00:19:00] people that are working in their, in the values that they're, they're currently meant to live by, but they're actually not really doing it often enough is, is a huge thing.

[00:19:08] Gerry Scullion: One of the things about design at scale, uh, Peter, and again, you may have experienced with this or you may not, but, um, The, the, the lens of growth, um, within design is, is a huge issue that I feel isn't given enough credence, uh, in terms of how you use design to basically stimulate, uh, innovation for capital gain.

[00:19:33] Gerry Scullion: You know, so when you're working in places that, that are banks, Their main, um, sort of focus will be on generating money obviously, cuz they're, they're a bank and that's what they do. But when you're working in a service New South Wales environment and you're working within government, the, the values kind of shift a little bit.

[00:19:54] Gerry Scullion: Um, how do you feel the, the kind of principles of design at scale [00:20:00] shift between those two kind of different types of organizations?

[00:20:04] Peter Löfgren: So I think it's always. Uh, quite important to go in and try to identify what is the true currency, like real value the organization. Really think the primary reason and give example of

[00:20:26] Peter Löfgren: landscapes. Uh, you look at like ratings. You know, how how many people actually watch televis? And that can be also like interesting currency, especially from perspective. Yeah. This is just, this is just one example and then the industry

[00:20:52] Peter Löfgren: alternate. Alternate, like, you know, objective there. Yeah. Then when you go into government, then you can [00:21:00] start to think about what would be the currency over. Um, is it, is it customer satisfaction? How do you, how do you determine that? Or is it political go? Is the political like, you know, benefit the, hmm, what is it?

[00:21:19] Peter Löfgren: And it takes some time for you to understand. Usually there's one thing, There could be multiple, but usually there's one thing. Once you kinda identify that it's easier for you to. That's the, that's the, the control of the organization. That, that's thing that keeps, keep people.

[00:21:41] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Um, it's, it's interesting like when I'm, I'm thinking about design at scale in places like Service New, so Wales, um, how do you measure.

[00:21:53] Gerry Scullion: Improvements And how do you measure, um, the North Star, so to speak? I, I know you [00:22:00] mentioned there a little bit more around, um, the currency and stuff like that, but how do you know that incrementally you're getting closer to those goals?

[00:22:08] Peter Löfgren: So we have a very good,

[00:22:13] Peter Löfgren: uh, for delivery. So we are, we're quick to, to deliver ago. If there is like a flood, if there a bush fire, if there's like even a pandemic, uh, we are expected to those situations so we get actually help people. So in that else, in government, government, a bit of our reputation of being quite slow. So I think that's, that's the key, key value.

[00:22:46] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. And then there also the, of course, The quality that we actually truly help people in those situations. Uh, it's extremely important for, for us, uh, as organization. Yeah, [00:23:00] and I mean, and that's something like, you know, that's, that's a purpose really, and I think organizations require that do. And the more that is genuine, the more people are willing to also go the extra mile.

[00:23:13] Gerry Scullion: I mean, another metric there would be the speed to deliver. I know you mentioned there about being delivery focused, but if you mentioned. Dine and Discover, I think was the name of the project. Um, and a pandemic and being able to restructure and reorganize and, and yet deliver something that is award-winning and meeting the, the needs of restaurants and the people of New South Wales.

[00:23:39] Gerry Scullion: I think the speed and being able to respond to those new challenges is a huge metric that, um, is Testa. To the work. I mean, that's a huge, um, powerful indicator.

[00:23:52] Peter Löfgren: It's, it's, But then we also need to remember that when you deliver something, so the beginning. So then you, [00:24:00] you, you need to take into consideration then you have interactive improvements.

[00:24:03] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. We're still talking about like, you know, agile delivery, if we're talking about product design, design and delivery. So once something goes out to the market, we also looking at how this is performing in the market. Yeah. And then based on that we also like, you know, they're rolling out new releases an ongoing basis.

[00:24:22] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. And this happens in multiple channels at the same time. We, we are like really paying attention how we're performing in the market. Yeah. But the primary is that we get something out there

[00:24:34] Gerry Scullion: and that's excellent because too much of design, um, I feel, anyway, and I, I've had some conversations about this recently, um, with Ricardo Martins in, um, SCDs Savannah College of Art Design in the US is around the implementation of service design projects and the implementation of design within the organiz.

[00:24:53] Gerry Scullion: So let's talk about the D Discover project because, you know, as designers, [00:25:00] um, and as organizations, we love the shiny new thing. We love, you know, creating and building and, uh, releasing these new things. So with the d d Discover project, you know, the design team was involved. They, they co-created, I'm sure, lots, many parts of it, and they released it out into the market.

[00:25:21] Gerry Scullion: What role would, would you have in enabling the, the iterative process moving forward? Like what kind of key hires, what kind of people did you have to bring into the project? Like for instance, product managers or whatever it was to manage that moving forward?

[00:25:40] Peter Löfgren: I mean, they were like, you know, We must remember that this is very much a cross functional effort.

[00:25:45] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. So it's not. Alone at all. Yeah. It's really about disability. Viability and visibility. Yeah. And getting those people together. There was a lot of very clever engineers, very clever product managers [00:26:00] and designers involved. And there was like, which was about to discover really understanding, going deep quite quickly on, on, uh, Are we approaching the problem space?

[00:26:16] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. In the appropriate way. Yeah. You know, understanding is, is the right design and in that more designers and designers more and well management. And there was technical people looking into it and once we had like a bit of a confidence around it, then we started to look at like, you know, How do you actually then build something like this?

[00:26:48] Peter Löfgren: And now you need to remember one, there's all sorts of things involved here. There's multiple channels, there's chat, there's mobile web, there's also like [00:27:00] proof of there's my, you know, uh, integration that needs to happen. So altogether there was like you. Many, many, many product teams involved in this end to customer I said only like, you know, looking at business additional on.

[00:27:25] Peter Löfgren: So it was quite, quite orchestration

[00:27:28] Gerry Scullion: basically, I would say so. So with this project and it been so successful, and we mentioned about how we can reuse those patterns, uh, into other industries you mentioned about swimming lessons and, and so forth. There's a huge opportunity there for, um, the organization to capitalize on, on that excellent discovery piece and that excellent implementation.

[00:27:49] Gerry Scullion: What role would design have, um, moving forward? Um, would, would the same designers be involved throughout this or they, they removed from that [00:28:00] project and put on other projects? What does that look like in terms of service? New South Wales?

[00:28:04] Peter Löfgren: So if you think about it from the customer perspective, you still have product, as I mentioned, that would like responsible for proof of identity.

[00:28:15] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, proof identity to as.

[00:28:20] Peter Löfgren: If it's a new type of a, like, you know, uh, you still need to doi but that product then improves roadmap and that that feature be applied, then

[00:28:40] Peter Löfgren: that's kinda how the orchestration happens. Yeah. So, um, Then you have the end to end, uh, vouchers roadmap on top of it that takes all of these product into consideration and what they have to have, uh, what they have to offer. Nice. That's basically how it benefit

[00:28:57] Gerry Scullion: works. Yeah, absolutely. There's. [00:29:00] There's a, I'm sure there's a huge case study to be done in the behavioral changes as well and the benefits to the businesses and the benefits to the economy.

[00:29:08] Gerry Scullion: There's, there's different zoom levels that we can apply here to, to how we would evaluate that single initiative. Um, but yeah, it's, it's super interesting. But just going back to the design at scale, convers. Um, what does it look like from an executive level in terms of, um, and this is from your perspective, looking at executive levels.

[00:29:31] Gerry Scullion: Um, what kind of indicators are you looking for, um, when you're trying to drive design at scale in an organization like Service New South Wales? Um, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:29:45] Peter Löfgren: So I suppose this question of the buy into design. Yeah. You know, in the sense that, is it considered or is it something that.

[00:29:58] Peter Löfgren: I would still say that [00:30:00] we environments kinda more design is really consider properly. Yeah. So if somewhere probably on that in the and, and I don't think we ever, You don't come to, and uh, especially also like when you kinda come. A role like mine, uh, you need to also look at the environment and adapt to the environment and see where does it make sense for you to start.

[00:30:33] Peter Löfgren: But if I, if I would say that like, you know, one thing that I would look at is how genuine is, is the customer attention to the customer and the customer value delivery. Hmm. So if it always, if it only like superficial to understand. What kind of initiatives have been done around this? Is there, is there research?

[00:30:58] Peter Löfgren: Is the research done on a [00:31:00] basis? Are decisions made based on research? These are the things that really, where. As a design leader, you should step in and start to influence. Yeah,

[00:31:17] Gerry Scullion: and with, with those conversations, Peter, um, it can be quite hard to approach them due to the, the power structures and the hierarchy and the legacy that they may have within the organization.

[00:31:30] Gerry Scullion: What role? Um, Would you have or just the organization have in educating and training those executives to be able to make those, um, objective decisions around design and innovation?

[00:31:45] Peter Löfgren: So, I mean, it can take many shapes and forms. I mean, usually you establish a relationship, fellow human being Yeah. You from understand [00:32:00] the things that this person and appreciate and, and then you can start to talk about the things that you can bring to the table.

[00:32:10] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. And, uh, then if you would do something, A bigger scale. If you look at the whole organization or what I have done before by enemies only by myself, but with the team, is that we have had, like for the whole organization where you kind organization chart and you ensure that you bring people in from the different divisions, the different, uh, PNLs into their emerging and, and you expose.

[00:32:43] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, customers, customer research, not the sense that they, they, they only hear about it. S a presentation, that research part [00:33:00] concepts as part of this concepts with real customers. Yeah. And that's the most effective way of. Of that type of change, which is basically the end of the day that we, we design for human beings and their needs.

[00:33:19] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. We need to understand those

[00:33:20] Gerry Scullion: needs. Absolutely. And

[00:33:23] Peter Löfgren: for us it's pretty straightforward. And that's what. For, for other people that I remember being exposed to anything like that. Yeah. Once you kinda exposed them, they get really excited. Absolutely. It's really good. They love it.

[00:33:37] Gerry Scullion: I just want to do it more.

[00:33:38] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, exactly. I always remember, uh, Peter in Abank in Australia, um, when I was working at an executive. I wasn't an executive when I was working with the executives and I had to go. Do a presentation based on the validation of an initiative for that bank. And all of them came down into the garage where [00:34:00] all the innovation happened and they came down in their suits and, um, they're all in the lobby.

[00:34:06] Gerry Scullion: And I went out and I got them, and one by one they started to take off their ties and take off their, their jackets and rolling their sleeves up. And they were like, Ah, it's so good to be in a, in this space. It's like, I don't need to wear my tie. And it was, I was just, Completely, uh, in stitches laughing because everyone wants to be relaxed.

[00:34:26] Gerry Scullion: And it was like a two different, uh, environments where they were coming from a very kinda sterile office into a garage where we were gonna look at research and it was a much more relaxed environment. So, um, it is an addictive thing. And a lot of the, those executives that I did work with at that point, um, they wanted to get that level of kind of comfort and relaxed environment.

[00:34:48] Gerry Scullion: To do design and innovation, and many of them left . So it's, uh, it's interest to hear when you, when you're talking about the executives that you're working with, that they love it. They, they love this work. [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. I mean, just like, you know, other examples, I think it's many in, in organiz. Human center design methods and customers especially, or users, you know, customer and all that.

[00:35:18] Peter Löfgren: But, and you can, you can do it through these kind. Could also like where you, where. When you conduct, uh, research around concepts and you do it online. Yeah. Or even if you do it in, in, in like, you know, meeting rooms or in, in in labs, you stream it so that many people can watch it. Yeah. In organizations and people get together even and watch it.

[00:35:46] Peter Löfgren: Watch it as a team, like look like going to the movies and have popcorn.

[00:35:52] Gerry Scullion: You've done that. Have you?

[00:35:53] Peter Löfgren: You. Yeah, I done it a couple of times in Finland and, and, and over here as well. So, and I [00:36:00] think it's really powerful because then it kinda generates that conversation that, Oh, really? I didn't see that coming.

[00:36:06] Peter Löfgren: I mean, did you see what that customer did there? I mean, that's so unexpected. Yeah. You know, and these kinds things. And then the teams with each other and they like, you know, bounce offs and so, and then always need to remind them that this, by the way, just one customer, we did this I in order draw or really conclusions.

[00:36:30] Peter Löfgren: Yeah. So that's,

[00:36:32] Gerry Scullion: I, I love that. Um, cinema ask experience of, of sharing the, uh, sharing the progress and sharing the research and stuff. It's a, it's, that's a really positive idea and something that I'm sure many of our listeners will, will find value and you could make it into a, a special event to, for people to look forward to, um, to sharing these research, especially when you mix in popcorn and, and other things to encourage them to attend.

[00:36:57] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, exactly. Would you remember to have [00:37:00] your consent. Appropriately set up in order to

[00:37:03] Gerry Scullion: do that. Of course, of course. You mentioned there about, um, educating the, the broader teams about human-centered design. , what role does training and enablement play in maintaining those skills? Because I've seen a lot of consultancies push people in front of a screen and, uh, answer q and a multiple questions, and then they get a little certificate badge, which is all very nice for them, and then they share on LinkedIn.

[00:37:32] Gerry Scullion: And really, it doesn't, it doesn't do anything for the organization. It just, it's a, it's a pseudo um, training. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you can actually mitigate that, that kind of approach to, to scaling design within those organizations. But also how are you currently doing that at Service New South Wales?

[00:37:52] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, we Wales[00:38:00]

[00:38:01] Peter Löfgren: of of providers are quite deep experts in certain areas. Uh, one is, for example, access. Yeah, so we are rolling out disability training, uh, for designers, for engineers, and for product managers, and, and we are rolling them this training out for cohort. So there are commonalities that run across. There are very specific things that engineers need to think.

[00:38:28] Peter Löfgren: And very specific things that define some product managers need to think about. Yeah. And how we did, we approached design, did

[00:38:41] Peter Löfgren: is. What, what people understand today and what are the aspirations or where would they like to go. And then we very much tailor the training, uh, for that particular environment. Hmm. And then we, we planned it and then we rolled it out. And then once, once people now [00:39:00] then, uh, do accessible and inclusive.

[00:39:03] Peter Löfgren: Research. We also provide support in mechanisms for them. So they dunno, even though they have been going through the training, how, for example, to test people with impair. Uh, they wouldn't do it alone, but they also supported by, by true access when they research. So this is one example. Um, it's hard work, you mindset.

[00:39:37] Peter Löfgren: You shouldn't approach it Super. Should when you, when you do training, especially on scale, understand first off.[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Peter Löfgren: Learning experience. Nice. That will be my, my advice for it. Yeah. We are doing the same thing, notability, but we also like doing it for, uh, evidence based decision making.

[00:40:16] Peter Löfgren: Perspective we're working good service design organization as well. Techs more per, Yeah, and also like you working with workshop facilitation. So how do you plan for workshops and how do you, how do you facilitate them effectively? Yeah. And we we're also providing these type of training, uh, everything. So Wales.

[00:40:43] Gerry Scullion: Nice. Look, Peter, um, I had a great conversation with you saying, ah, I wanna thank you for giving your time and energy and your openness for answering a lot of those questions. I'm sure the listeners will have great, uh, interests and some of them may have questions for you. So if they do wanna reach [00:41:00] out to you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with?

[00:41:03] Gerry Scullion: Link in

[00:41:04] Peter Löfgren: probably, Yeah.

[00:41:05] Gerry Scullion: To place. Okay. Yeah. So I'll throw a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes. Um, and, you know, stand by because I'm sure the people are gonna be asking you lots of questions about, about your wonderful experience. And again, congratulations from everyone here at this ad on the Good Design award.

[00:41:21] Gerry Scullion: Thanks for your time.

[00:41:22] Peter Löfgren: Yeah, thank you Jerry. It was a pleasure talking with you. As always. Enjoyed talking with.

[00:41:29] Gerry Scullion: And there you go, folks. I hope you enjoyed that episode, and if you enjoyed it and want to listen to more, why not visit? This is hey cd.com where you can learn more about what we were up to and also explore our courses.

[00:41:39] Gerry Scullion: Whilst you're there, thanks again for listening.[00:42:00]

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