Scaling Design Talent with Sara Fortier

[00:00:00] Sara Fortier: Like I've run my entire business based on my intuition. And so if I sniffed [00:00:05] them out on that call and I was like, okay, you seem normal, you seem cool, [00:00:10] and you've got a nice portfolio that I've looked at. You're good. I'll put you in [00:00:15] kind of thing. Yeah. And actually it worked really well, but what you realize is that.

[00:00:19] Sara Fortier: If [00:00:20] you're gonna scale your company, you can't be on every interview. Exactly. Um, and you have [00:00:25] to create processes and systems around it.

[00:00:27] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another [00:00:30] episode of This is Haight cd. My name is Jerry Scion and I'm a human-centered service design [00:00:35] practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland today in the show.

[00:00:39] Gerry Scullion: Sarah [00:00:40] 48. Now Sarah is the CEO of outwardly, a UX and service design [00:00:45] talent solutions organization based in Canada. And we cover a lot of ground in this episode, [00:00:50] but a few things really stuck out to me. There's three things. Number one, the founder, honesty. You'll see [00:00:55] that Sarah, when we were speaking, um, is really, really refreshing.

[00:00:58] Gerry Scullion: The openly and honest, [00:01:00] okay. They don't have all the answers. But we speak about the complexities and the complications of [00:01:05] building a business around your family. So like myself, it's, it's [00:01:10] difficult. So we speak about that fumbling early stages of growing a business into the, [00:01:15] the larger contracts and where they currently are now at the moment.

[00:01:18] Gerry Scullion: So it's really [00:01:20] candid way of looking at starting a business. The second point is designing for scale, and [00:01:25] we unpack what it actually means to do this. From leaning into your gut in the early days [00:01:30] and then really formalizing those processes to set you up with the, uh, the ability to scale [00:01:35] your organization.

[00:01:36] Gerry Scullion: And Sarah really is open about this and it's fantastic to see and hear. And the [00:01:40] third piece is what recruiters really look for. So if you are out there in the market at the moment looking for a job, [00:01:45] Sarah is in this industry. And gives absolutely, you know, [00:01:50] gold nuggets being dropped every couple of seconds in this episode towards the end, especially where we [00:01:55] speak about what recruiters are looking for, what you need to do to give yourself the edge.

[00:01:58] Gerry Scullion: So if you're in the market for a [00:02:00] job, this is a great episode, so be sure to stay to the very end and listen to that as well. [00:02:05] So if you're thinking about contracting, building your own team, or just curious on how to design. How [00:02:10] recruitment intersect. I know you're gonna love this episode and also we speak about, Sarah's got [00:02:15] a new book that is coming out and we speak about that at length.

[00:02:18] Gerry Scullion: 'cause I have had the [00:02:20] opportunity to read parts of this book and I believe it is gonna be an absolutely uh, [00:02:25] blockbuster. So I know you're gonna enjoy it. Learn more about the book in the episode and hope you.[00:02:30] [00:02:35] [00:02:40]

[00:02:41] Gerry Scullion: Let's start off. We'll, uh, you're based in Winnipeg. [00:02:45] Yeah. Uh, that's correct. But maybe for our listeners, tell us how you [00:02:50] introduce yourself at dinner parties.

[00:02:52] Sara Fortier: Well, what, uh, what do I say at dinner parties? [00:02:55] I don't go to dinner parties because I'm a mom of two and I have a little baby. Um, [00:03:00] that's right. And a 5-year-old.

[00:03:01] Sara Fortier: Uh, but yeah, essentially I, uh, I am the CEO and [00:03:05] founder of at Whitley. And, uh, I am a trained designer and design [00:03:10] strategist. Um, went to school of industrial design, learned about designing [00:03:15] 3D products way back when. Oh yeah, it's a great, great, great [00:03:20] upbringing into the industry, I think. Yeah. Um, I know Whitley is a UX [00:03:25] and service design talent solutions partner.

[00:03:27] Sara Fortier: So we started as consulting and now we're [00:03:30] doing more talent. And so I lead, uh, that company, my company.

[00:03:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:03:35] because when we were chatting there in the prelude, we spoke about you made your first hire, [00:03:40] was it 2020? 2020, yeah. 21. Yeah,

[00:03:42] Sara Fortier: 2020.

[00:03:43] Gerry Scullion: So had a bit of [00:03:45] rapid growth both personally and professionally. Um, for out at Whitley.

[00:03:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:03:50] So what was that like? You mentioned there that you were on the tools, and I think you mentioned that you [00:03:55] were, um, you're your first child. Is that right? That same thing? Yeah.

[00:03:58] Sara Fortier: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, [00:04:00] uh, so basically I, I, you know, I started the company in 2016. [00:04:05] Really? It was just me. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I was doing d you know, [00:04:10] different consulting jobs for different clients that, you know, I'd met through referrals or different companies I used [00:04:15] to have to work with.

[00:04:16] Sara Fortier: And then, um. I had my fir my [00:04:20] son, uh, in 2019 and realized like, okay, this maybe isn't so sustainable [00:04:25] to be pregnant and having a baby and all the things. Mm-hmm. So I hired my first employee who was [00:04:30] actually my best friend. Um, and she wasn't a designer, she was in [00:04:35] communication. So she kind of did a lot of the admin and the marketing stuff while I continued to do the [00:04:40] design work.

[00:04:41] Sara Fortier: Um, and then because so slowly sort of grew from there and kind of [00:04:45] kept the consulting piece, uh. Going and then I, you [00:04:50] know, I was getting asked a lot like, Hey, you know, Sarah, we love you so much. Could you come work for us full-time for [00:04:55] six months? And I was like, yeah, no, I have way too many other projects on the [00:05:00] go.

[00:05:00] Sara Fortier: Uh, but I have a friend. Um, and so I started [00:05:05] hiring contractors and placing them full-time. Within our client organizations and [00:05:10] realized there was business there. And, uh, oh, over the last few years [00:05:15] that has kind of taken over the, the business and, um, it's a really [00:05:20] scalable model. So, uh, that's where we're sitting now.

[00:05:23] Gerry Scullion: I mean, we could probably speak about the [00:05:25] growth of Out Whitley and the rebrand, um, but with that [00:05:30] piece that you mentioned there about hiring talent. Yeah. Um, effectively extending the [00:05:35] relationship beyond. Friend into contracting and into [00:05:40] that whole world. How did you navigate the stakeholder pieces, um, [00:05:45] between businesses and contractors?

[00:05:47] Gerry Scullion: In the very early doors? Yeah. What was that like? [00:05:50] Because you probably didn't have any legal representation, you didn't have any contracting pieces. Yeah. [00:05:55]

[00:05:55] Sara Fortier: I mean, we did, like I was, uh, when I started the company and started hiring [00:06:00] people. My parents are business owners and they always said to me, get contracts.

[00:06:03] Sara Fortier: Like you have to have contracts [00:06:05] in place. So I did have contracts in place like early on. Okay. I think the [00:06:10] stuff that I. Didn't know and that I was like fumbling my way through with was [00:06:15] on the client side actually. Like, what do the sows look like and what do those contracts [00:06:20] look like? Um, and I would just like willy-nilly sign pretty much any [00:06:25] contract that came in front of me being like, yep, sounds good.

[00:06:27] Sara Fortier: That's some work for us. Yeah. Work of [00:06:30] work. Um, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, Google templates for. How to draft a [00:06:35] sow, and I'd kind of put it in front of 'em and be like, does this look like it's right? You know? Yeah. [00:06:40] Um, so that, that part was, was like a learning curve. And then the more you do it, the more that you [00:06:45] see too.

[00:06:45] Sara Fortier: You just learn and, and you make it better. Um, but on the, and then on the [00:06:50] people side, I mean, that's. That's an interesting part because when you start a business, when you're [00:06:55] passionate about design, you think that you're gonna be spending your time designing or researching. Yeah. [00:07:00] And what you learn pretty quick as if you're growing the company, you're not doing any of that stuff.

[00:07:04] Sara Fortier: [00:07:05] You're basically managing people, um, making sure everybody's okay. [00:07:10] You know, learning your own demons about what maybe [00:07:15] why you're micromanaging people or, you know. Why you do the certain things [00:07:20] that you do and you kind of have to face those and grow as a person in order to be able to, [00:07:25] to grow your company and be better for the people that are working for you and, and also attract better people.[00:07:30]

[00:07:30] Gerry Scullion: That's really interesting. Most people don't really call that out as a thing when you start [00:07:35] running a business that it kind of shows up your own personal and [00:07:40] potentially professional flaws as well. Yeah. Tell me how, how you explored that as an [00:07:45] individual. Yeah. Good to know that.

[00:07:46] Sara Fortier: Yeah, so I, I mean, I've always been interested in like, [00:07:50] the coaching personal development side of the world, and so I, [00:07:55] I started getting, you know, being dabbling my toes into some business [00:08:00] coaches or life coaching things that, that did help me.

[00:08:03] Sara Fortier: Um, and at [00:08:05] first they were sort of group oriented and then I realized that this, it would be much better if it was [00:08:10] individual. So I, I. Have had business coaches over the last probably three or four years, and I think [00:08:15] that has really helped me grow and be better, um, a [00:08:20] better leader and, uh. Uh, yeah. So I think without them it would've been [00:08:25] a much longer slog and I'm still learning.

[00:08:28] Sara Fortier: You never stop. But, uh, [00:08:30] they helped for sure.

[00:08:32] Gerry Scullion: One of the things you mentioned there, and I'd love to get your [00:08:35] understanding of that, is when you hire talent. And you're looking to make sure [00:08:40] that they can do the job. Yeah. But they're also reflective of the [00:08:45] brand that you've built and the same kinda mindset if you want like Yeah, [00:08:50] like an extension of with Sarah, like, you know.

[00:08:52] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:08:54] Gerry Scullion: How, how, [00:08:55] what's your recruitment process? Because you also have to make sure then that they're able to adapt and. [00:09:00] Still do the job for your clients.

[00:09:02] Sara Fortier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I [00:09:05] mean, it's a really good question and, and I think if, if I'm being honest, in the [00:09:10] beginning it was me. I would just, you know, find people online, message them, be like, [00:09:15] Hey, your profile matches what I'm looking for.

[00:09:18] Sara Fortier: Can we talk? And it was [00:09:20] really easy for me to talk to pretty much anyone because they'd look at my LinkedIn profile, they'd be like, oh wow, you know, [00:09:25] she's been doing this for X number of years, and she's the CEO of be Whitley. Company looks cool. So it's [00:09:30] really easy to get the calls with the talent. Um, and I would just ask them questions, you [00:09:35] know, the way I would interview any UX designer or service designer.

[00:09:38] Sara Fortier: You know, tell me about yourself, [00:09:40] background types of projects you've worked on. And I was always looking for the people who. Or [00:09:45] the kind of complex thinkers, the people that could look at a problem and they'd get [00:09:50] excited by a problem. Um, and then they would have a, a more of a real process [00:09:55] around how do they go about solving the problem.

[00:09:57] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Uh, versus more [00:10:00] the glamor stuff that it can. Be very sexy and kind of [00:10:05] prevalent. Um, and it was, it was a gut check. Like I've run my entire [00:10:10] business based on my intuition. And so if I sniffed them out on that call and I was like. [00:10:15] Okay. You seem normal, you seem cool, and you've got a nice [00:10:20] portfolio that I've looked at.

[00:10:21] Sara Fortier: You're good, I'll put you in kind of thing. Yeah. And actually [00:10:25] it worked really well. But what you realize is that if you're gonna scale your company, you [00:10:30] can't be on every interview. Exactly. Um, and you have to create processes and [00:10:35] systems around it. And then also getting into the staffing and talent worlds, there [00:10:40] is like a full process around recruiting.

[00:10:43] Sara Fortier: Um, so now we have more. [00:10:45] More things in place, you know, rubrics and, and things that we're checking for. [00:10:50] Um, but at a Whitley in particular, that problem solving piece also, are [00:10:55] people organized? Are they, do they have high emotional intelligence? [00:11:00] Um, I think are other things that we are looking for.

[00:11:03] Gerry Scullion: So for talent out [00:11:05] there.

[00:11:05] Gerry Scullion: Looking to get a gig if, if your, your [00:11:10] business model is kind of expanding as opposed to, you know, contracting. And I'm speaking from [00:11:15] behalf out Whitley here. You must see a lot of people and you [00:11:20] must Yeah. Exposed to times service designers and user experience people. Yeah. [00:11:25] Um, if you had to. Give us a top three [00:11:30] kind of things that you've noticed that people are doing wrong.

[00:11:33] Sara Fortier: Mm. Um,

[00:11:34] Gerry Scullion: that they, they're [00:11:35] opportunities for them to use those pieces to get an edge. [00:11:40]

[00:11:40] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:11:40] Gerry Scullion: I'm putting you in this here because we haven't, yeah, no, I have

[00:11:42] Sara Fortier: to think there. What people are doing [00:11:45] wrong.

[00:11:45] Gerry Scullion: It stands for,

[00:11:49] Gerry Scullion: you know, I [00:11:50] think, um. I

[00:11:52] Sara Fortier: mean the, one of the things is like optimizing your [00:11:55] LinkedIn profile really? Okay. Like putting a ton of detail in your LinkedIn [00:12:00] profile. Yeah. We'll,

[00:12:01] Gerry Scullion: we'll, we'll take this one a little bit slower. Okay. So yeah, optimizing [00:12:05] your LinkedIn profile. I have a LinkedIn profile. I put all my stuff up there.

[00:12:08] Gerry Scullion: Is that optimized? [00:12:10]

[00:12:10] Sara Fortier: Well, I guess I haven't looked at it. No, no. But just Penny. Yeah. In theory. In theory, it's basically what, [00:12:15] what you see a lot of the time is when people are, well, I mean, we're [00:12:20] a recruiting firm, so we're going out towards to, to build pools and build a pipeline of [00:12:25] talent. Right. But we're looking for people, are they marked as open to work?

[00:12:28] Sara Fortier: Um, do [00:12:30] they, uh, have the description under the headers of their role? Right. Do they have [00:12:35] bullet points there? I mean, this is really basic stuff, but you'd be surprised at how. How often that's [00:12:40] neglected or people are just kind of like, well, the roles are there and I worked at big companies, so why do I need to explain [00:12:45] what I did?

[00:12:45] Sara Fortier: Um, so I would say, you know, have a profile picture. [00:12:50] Have all your roles there in your bio. Use keywords of thing, like if you're an [00:12:55] accessibility designer, make sure that's mentioned because. You're searching in [00:13:00] LinkedIn for keywords, you know, if you're a freelancer, an independent contractor, write those [00:13:05] keywords in because, um, you don't know how people are trying to actually find [00:13:10] you.

[00:13:10] Sara Fortier: Yeah. So from my perspective, when we're looking for people, that is what I [00:13:15] would say is 'cause the first point is for us LinkedIn. [00:13:20] Then, then you move to the resume and the portfolio. Right? And [00:13:25] so, uh, and you kind of have to pass this first set of checks before you're gonna get an [00:13:30] interview. And so if you don't do good on those things, you're, you're just not gonna meet [00:13:35] anybody.

[00:13:35] Sara Fortier: Right?

[00:13:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Let's talk about photographs on LinkedIn. Yeah. Because, [00:13:40] um. What about if you, if you're a creative, uh, or if you're, [00:13:45] yeah. In Ad World and you've got a profile photo, what, what's your thoughts when they do the sideline [00:13:50] side profile? Oh, that's okay.

[00:13:51] Sara Fortier: That's alright. Yeah, photo. That's fine.

[00:13:53] Gerry Scullion: That's fine, isn't it?

[00:13:54] Sara Fortier: Yeah, [00:13:55] that's fine. I think, uh, you know, that's more like, oh, you're just thinking this person's creative or [00:14:00] cartoon, you're looking for designer cartoon photos

[00:14:01] Gerry Scullion: yourself.

[00:14:02] Sara Fortier: Yeah. I guess I would say like, maybe no [00:14:05] avatars or, you know, know. That, that sort of thing. It's just like that to know that you're a [00:14:10] human.

[00:14:10] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So they've got a grasp that shows [00:14:15] that they've got an intent around their, their own personal brand is probably gonna [00:14:20] be a bit of an image. Yeah.

[00:14:21] Sara Fortier: Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:14:23] Gerry Scullion: Once they pass [00:14:25] the Sarah 48, um, check for LinkedIn. Yeah. [00:14:30] Slip into the dms, as they would say. Is that right?

[00:14:33] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:34] Sara Fortier: So I mean, [00:14:35] and that, that, uh, wouldn't be true if you were just applying online to a [00:14:40] job posting, right? Because, uh, first you're gonna be, you know, you send your application through, [00:14:45] but someone who's vetting you at some point, right? So they're looking at either your resume or LinkedIn. [00:14:50] Um, and then, uh, and portfolio is a big piece that we can probably talk about [00:14:55] too.

[00:14:55] Sara Fortier: Yeah. But, uh. Yeah, so the resume also needs to describe, I [00:15:00] think so many people just put generic bullet points, conductive usability testing. Oh, [00:15:05] okay, great. Like, what does that even mean? Do we, don't we all do that? Like Yeah, perfect. You know, [00:15:10] give, give some color about what it is that the project was about.

[00:15:13] Sara Fortier: Sure. Um, some [00:15:15] context there in your resume I think is really helpful. Um, and then, and then, [00:15:20] uh, you know, from there with the portfolio. This is so typical, such a typical answer, [00:15:25] but, you know, show some storytelling, um, some process, some thinking. [00:15:30] It doesn't have to be. And I would say please don't riddle your portfolio with a [00:15:35] ton of words because.

[00:15:36] Sara Fortier: I am not reading those words. Okay. I'm [00:15:40] basically scrolling through quickly, looking at, you know, do they have some [00:15:45] headers that make sense, uh, for what, you know, starting with some discovery work [00:15:50] and maybe some journey maps or some personas. I take a quick look at those. I'm like, Hey, generally this [00:15:55] looks good.

[00:15:56] Sara Fortier: And I'm like, Hey, have they thought about ia? Did they do user [00:16:00] flows? Um, was there some conceptual thinking there before they then got [00:16:05] into maybe more on the design side? And it depends on the role you're looking for too.

[00:16:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Let's talk [00:16:10] about when you make contact on LinkedIn. Oh, yeah. Once, um, on [00:16:15] the other side of the fence, when you do get these messages.

[00:16:18] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And they're. [00:16:20] You know, sent through Sales Navigator on LinkedIn. AI generated, [00:16:25] yeah. Some of them are like, you know, whatever. And sometimes the responses you can get back from people are [00:16:30] one word, like no. Yep. Yes. Walk. [00:16:35] Um, people should respond to these pieces. Yeah. What, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:39] Gerry Scullion: Because it's, it's getting [00:16:40] more and more difficult to know what's real and what's just, yeah. I

[00:16:43] Sara Fortier: mean, we, there's [00:16:45] not enough time to personalize the messages when you're recruiting for a role that, let's [00:16:50] say you need to turn around candidates for in a week, right? So you need to sort of blast [00:16:55] message a hundred candidates who fit the, um,

[00:16:58] Gerry Scullion: criteria,

[00:16:59] Sara Fortier: the criteria.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Sara Fortier: Uh, and usually sales

[00:17:02] Gerry Scullion: navigator. Sales navigator. Is that, is that the tool that you choose? [00:17:05] We,

[00:17:05] Sara Fortier: we use recruiter, LinkedIn recruiter. It's another LinkedIn tool, but it's more talent [00:17:10] focused.

[00:17:10] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:17:11] Sara Fortier: Um, and, uh, you. Yeah, [00:17:15] so basically you build out a pipeline and then you send messages. It is, right now we still do [00:17:20] it manually.

[00:17:20] Sara Fortier: We're looking into where to augment with ai, but as you said, when you [00:17:25] start using the AI scripts, especially the LinkedIn AI scripts, it's just not there yet. Like they sound [00:17:30] still too manufactured, I guess. Yeah, it's getting better so. [00:17:35] But I, I think you're looking for real details. Like, you know, what, is it a [00:17:40] contract?

[00:17:40] Sara Fortier: What are the dates? Start date, end date? Is it option to renew? You know, [00:17:45] is there a description of what the project is about? Uh, and then you assess for [00:17:50] yourself, like, is this interesting to me? Um, mm-hmm. And decide whether to message, [00:17:55] I mean, honestly, a lot of people aren't looking for, for an opportunity, or [00:18:00] they don't like some of the specifics from the job that you, yeah.

[00:18:03] Sara Fortier: You send, so that's fine that they [00:18:05] say no. We always say, okay. You know, like, Hey, but can we keep you in mind for future things if we think they're good? [00:18:10]

[00:18:10] Gerry Scullion: What happens then from your business perspective? Like if you are sending out a hundred, [00:18:15] 200 messages Yeah. And someone kind of comes back and says, yeah, that's cool, but not right [00:18:20] now.

[00:18:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What, what do you do with that response? Is that possible to, [00:18:25] you know, I guess create a more of a human to human experience? Yeah. Yeah. What [00:18:30] does that look like? How, how do you stay there?

[00:18:32] Sara Fortier: That. Yeah. So it's, it, it's the, you, you [00:18:35] have a team of people, right, who are doing those answers, and then they're putting them in our pool.

[00:18:39] Sara Fortier: I mean, and it's, [00:18:40] it's linked to the, to the software. When you connect with somebody on LinkedIn, but [00:18:45] you kind of, you, you know, you just say, okay, great. You know, like we'd love to keep you in mind for [00:18:50] future. Um, sometimes we ask them to send us their resume, uh, so that we can add it [00:18:55] to yeah, like our just general pool.

[00:18:57] Sara Fortier: Um,

[00:18:58] Gerry Scullion: can I ask some thoughts on [00:19:00] something there? Because

[00:19:00] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:19:01] Gerry Scullion: Years ago, like maybe over 10, 11 years ago [00:19:05] when I used to be, you know, out contracting, um, yeah. People [00:19:10] would, would email me and I'm like, oh, here's this person again.

[00:19:13] Sara Fortier: Yeah. And

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: they're, I, I've already [00:19:15] spoken to them and then I get a message back on LinkedIn a few weeks later.

[00:19:19] Gerry Scullion: I'm like, [00:19:20] I've already told you I don't want this. Oh, yeah. And it affects poorly [00:19:25] on the recruiter. Yeah. And it's kind of a, a system that just [00:19:30] goes around and round. Yeah. If you do make contact, uh, [00:19:35] and you say it'll keep you in mind for another time.

[00:19:37] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Gerry Scullion: Do you?

[00:19:39] Sara Fortier: [00:19:40] Yeah. I mean, they go, they listen. They, you talk to a lot, a lot of people, right?

[00:19:44] Sara Fortier: Yeah. [00:19:45] And, uh, every job that you're looking to fill has different [00:19:50] criteria. Yeah. So we do keep them in mind, like if they're good, we do a hundred percent. Keep them [00:19:55] in mind because write

[00:19:55] Gerry Scullion: a photo of them. You put them up the wall and you put it in a frame [00:20:00] and looked the computer. So every time you change screen, you go, there's Jerry.

[00:20:04] Sara Fortier: No, [00:20:05] we have tags. Like we have tags where it's like, you know, if they're an A player or something like that, we'll [00:20:10] use that 'cause. So what you do first is you go to your known people to see if any of them [00:20:15] fit. Then next you go to your bigger pool. People that you've had some kind of touch point [00:20:20] with. Then if none of those fit, then you go to recruiter and you build a pipeline, you reach out to [00:20:25] strangers.

[00:20:25] Sara Fortier: Um, but what you're trying to do is have a really established pool [00:20:30] of strong candidates that you go to first and that are vetted and everything. So we have [00:20:35] like ongoing coffee chats with new people to get them into our pool all the time so that they're sort [00:20:40] of pre-vetted. Okay. Um, and so a candidate that says, Hey, I'd be interested in future.[00:20:45]

[00:20:45] Sara Fortier: We'll often be like, okay, great. Send us your resume. You know, we'll look at the resume. If we think [00:20:50] it's good to follow up with them and add them to our pool in a more serious way, then we'll ask for a [00:20:55] coffee chat. And there's bandwidth and resourcing you have to think about, but [00:21:00] that's what we try to do.

[00:21:01] Gerry Scullion: Can I ask a question, um, around, say you've got [00:21:05] four roles and they're going into. A bank that's in Canada. I have no idea. If you [00:21:10] work with banks, yeah. If you do, it's just a coincidence.

[00:21:12] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Gerry Scullion: They go off and they're working in there [00:21:15] and you are kind of, they, they, they're doing their job [00:21:20] and you're kind of maintaining connection with them and that relationship [00:21:25] goes on for a year, two years.

[00:21:27] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Where is the relationship [00:21:30] at as regards maintaining the skills of those practitioners who are [00:21:35] in. The bank. Okay. Because I've often wondered the gray area, like [00:21:40] sometimes I'd be doing training for banks or whatever it is, and they say, look, these are all the full-time employees [00:21:45] and then there's the long-term contractors.

[00:21:46] Gerry Scullion: We can't really bring them in.

[00:21:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Gerry Scullion: It's, it seems really [00:21:50] kind of crappy, like, you know, like they're part of the team, but they're not part of the team. Yeah. Who do you navigate that? [00:21:55]

[00:21:55] Sara Fortier: Yeah, it depends on the client. We do have some clients that are very inclusive of their [00:22:00] contractors, so they will bring them into trainings and stuff like that.

[00:22:03] Sara Fortier: Uh, and then you have [00:22:05] clients that are like, well, they're being paid way more, and so they should [00:22:10] be in charge of their own, uh,

[00:22:12] Gerry Scullion: l and d

[00:22:12] Sara Fortier: development. Right? Yeah. [00:22:15] Um, sometimes you, they will maybe give them discounts or something if they [00:22:20] have like a license to some training or, or things like that. But yeah, it's kind of two [00:22:25] mindsets.

[00:22:25] Sara Fortier: It's either. They're very inclusive and they feel very much a part of the team, [00:22:30] and they will bring them to trainings and just upscale the whole team together, or it's very, [00:22:35] there's a line in the sand and, and that's. That's just [00:22:40] kind of the way it is, and it's like when you decide that you're gonna contract, you have to [00:22:45] understand that like you are your own business.

[00:22:47] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Uh, you represent yourself. I mean, you're [00:22:50] always representing the companies that you're working for at Whitley as the vendor and the [00:22:55] client. Um, but you know, things like, you know, the software [00:23:00] sometimes the machine that you're using, like that's usually stuff that they provide. Depends again, on the company, right?

[00:23:04] Sara Fortier: [00:23:05] For security reasons, they might say, use all our tools and machines and stuff. Yeah. But it's a cost [00:23:10] that you. Have to incur essentially, because you're making so much more money [00:23:15] than you would as an employee, but you could also be let go drop of a hat with [00:23:20] no, there's no hr.

[00:23:21] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Yeah. Regularly. I got emails on a [00:23:25] Sunday night saying, this is your last week, you know, in a [00:23:30] bank in Australia.

[00:23:30] Gerry Scullion: I was like, what? Yeah. Put the funding for, for big programs to work and it just [00:23:35] happened. Yeah, it just, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. If you, [00:23:40] um, 'cause like when you started out in your business, um, and now it's moved into [00:23:45] this kind of area Yeah. Where you're, you're scaling. Talent effectively, that's not a [00:23:50] recruiter.

[00:23:50] Gerry Scullion: I had a conversation before Sarah, and we were saying we're not really recruiter. It's more helping [00:23:55] those teams find the right talent. Yeah. Um, but it's still, uh, the relationship [00:24:00] is still with Sarah. Yeah. If you had a magic wand, this is a pen. Okay. If you had a magic [00:24:05] wand and we could go bing. Yeah. And you can go back in time.

[00:24:08] Gerry Scullion: What are the things that you wish you [00:24:10] had in place, um, and you, um, were able to put in place to best prepare [00:24:15] you for where you're at now? Yeah. What are those things that you, you kind of look back on and say, God, I wish [00:24:20] I knew, uh, how to do that? Yeah. Better way back. What are they?

[00:24:23] Sara Fortier: I, I think I would've invested in [00:24:25] senior leadership way faster.

[00:24:26] Gerry Scullion: Right. Uh, what did that look like? [00:24:30] In what capacity?

[00:24:31] Sara Fortier: Like, uh, you know, any of your, your senior [00:24:35] people who, you know, it depends on what their title is and depends on the company that you, [00:24:40] you're building and stuff, but like, essentially the people that are gonna lead the team members. [00:24:45] Mm-hmm. Um. That I would've hired those like really [00:24:50] smart people and chalked up, you know, like it's hard to commit to the [00:24:55] payroll and that's why you don't do it in the beginning.

[00:24:57] Sara Fortier: And, and there's within reason, but at some point you [00:25:00] get to a point where you can afford it. And you, I, and I'm sure many others, but [00:25:05] like, I still like having the money in my pocket. Um, or this [00:25:10] still feels a little bit too risky or something, right? Mm-hmm. So waited a long time for that. [00:25:15] And then once you bring those senior people on who can [00:25:20] be autonomous and they can take on way more work, or they've done it [00:25:25] better at different places, you can scale the company because you're [00:25:30] offloaded from all of those tasks.

[00:25:31] Sara Fortier: Uh, and you can go get more business or, you know, whatever it is [00:25:35] that you should focus on. So I think. That's for sure. One of the things,

[00:25:39] Gerry Scullion: [00:25:40] so in the early days it's, it seems to be like you and I'm the same. You want to [00:25:45] bank as much as you possibly can. Yeah. So you've got money in, in the bank. At what point did you relinquish and [00:25:50] say, actually, you know what?

[00:25:50] Gerry Scullion: I'm gonna happy to take a loss here 'cause I'm gonna invest into talent [00:25:55] in the hope. Yeah. Rates around over the last five years, I guess you've been kind of doing [00:26:00] this. Yeah, I've sort of, you know, been

[00:26:02] Sara Fortier: doing it slowly and I think as the [00:26:05] company became more profitable and I would sort of look at like, okay, what was the monthly [00:26:10] profit?

[00:26:10] Sara Fortier: Yeah, not revenue, right? I think everyone gets obsessed with top line revenue, but you have [00:26:15] to think about is the company profitable? Um, 'cause that's, [00:26:20] let's be real, you start a business to make money. I mean, you've had, there's all [00:26:25] the good things about it and everything, but business is. Make the world run and they all make [00:26:30] money.

[00:26:30] Sara Fortier: So

[00:26:30] Gerry Scullion: who was the, that you hired? What was the first senior leadership position that you hired? I'm always [00:26:35] interested in what that one was. Was it, was it finance or was it Yeah, it was

[00:26:38] Sara Fortier: finance.

[00:26:39] Gerry Scullion: Right. [00:26:40] Okay.

[00:26:40] Sara Fortier: Yeah, because I didn't like that stuff.

[00:26:42] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Is this [00:26:45] channel, I mean, I looked

[00:26:45] Sara Fortier: looking at the number.

[00:26:47] Gerry Scullion: Is this Shanna small?

[00:26:48] Gerry Scullion: Shanna?

[00:26:49] Sara Fortier: Yeah. [00:26:50] Hi Shanna. Hi Shanna. She's great.

[00:26:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Yeah. So you [00:26:55] hired the finance person and then Yeah. That did some stability in terms of like, you know, the [00:27:00] projections and so forth. Yeah.

[00:27:01] Sara Fortier: And all of the ad, she kind of just took care of all of the backend [00:27:05] stuff, you know, all the admin, the paying contractors.

[00:27:07] Sara Fortier: I mean, as you grow and you start having to pay [00:27:10] so many more people like that gets, yeah. So time consuming, complicated, [00:27:15] um, and invoicing on time, all of this stuff. Right. I used to be really slow with my invoices [00:27:20] and now I'm like. So mad when the contractors send their invoices in like five, six days late.

[00:27:24] Sara Fortier: I'm like, [00:27:25] come on, where's the invoice? Yeah, it's, you know, and I used to do it all the time.

[00:27:29] Gerry Scullion: I know [00:27:30] like, well, well I was never late sending invoices. Let's just say that because I realize [00:27:35] when you're small at the start, like it really is [00:27:40] kill you so quickly. Um, so now you're at like, whatever did you say.[00:27:45]

[00:27:45] Gerry Scullion: 25, 30 people, I dunno,

[00:27:47] Sara Fortier: many people. Really? 20 people. And then, you know, 50 or [00:27:50] so contractors. And then sometimes it scales from there. But yeah,

[00:27:54] Gerry Scullion: around that. So [00:27:55] what you seeing in the market at the moment? Because lots of people are [00:28:00] looking for work.

[00:28:01] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Gerry Scullion: And how, how is it that your business is growing? [00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Gerry Scullion: And uh, lots of people are still out there knocking on the door, especially in senior le senior [00:28:10] leadership positions.

[00:28:12] Sara Fortier: Uh, I mean, it's been a tough, tough [00:28:15] few years I think for our industry in general. Um. Funny [00:28:20] thing is that when it seems to be that when the [00:28:25] employees are being let go, contractors are being hired a lot of the time [00:28:30] because the companies still have stuff that needs to get done, but they're uncertain as to whether [00:28:35] they can carry.

[00:28:36] Sara Fortier: You know, a new headcount for X number of year. Like when you hire an [00:28:40] employee, it's a commitment. And there's a whole thing around employees that you can't just let them [00:28:45] go. Like yeah, you know, you have to put them on a performance improvement plan, and you have to [00:28:50] have all these reasons if you needed to let them go, right?

[00:28:52] Sara Fortier: Sure. Um, so, [00:28:55] and there's severance and all the things, right? So when. So contracting actually [00:29:00] does well in times where there's maybe more uncertainty in the economy. Yeah. So [00:29:05] that has helped. Um, and then, you know, I think also diversifying the industries [00:29:10] that you work with. Like tech is super hit hard, like really hard hit, but there's [00:29:15] opportunities in government, there's opportunities in finance and other, you know, insurance, other [00:29:20] places.

[00:29:21] Gerry Scullion: So with contracting and [00:29:25] businesses out there, like I, I totally see that the correlation between, you know, they [00:29:30] mitigate the risk in terms of being able to, you know, not have to worry about severance pay and [00:29:35] yeah. Health benefits and all, all of that, sort of the importance stuff, to be honest. [00:29:40] Yeah. But what with what you offer at the moment.

[00:29:44] Gerry Scullion: Is there a [00:29:45] certain type of designer that you're finding is a little bit more easier to find work [00:29:50] in your, in your cycle? Yeah. What does that look like? Yeah. What are they looking for? Yeah. [00:29:55]

[00:29:55] Sara Fortier: I, I, I think it's those people that I was kind of talking about earlier where they're, [00:30:00] they can do the strategy and the thinking and the, the research and then [00:30:05] they can carry it into the design.

[00:30:07] Sara Fortier: Um, I would say people who are [00:30:10] just mainly focused on more like heavily UI stuff or just [00:30:15] ux, pure UX research without the crossover into what does [00:30:20] this mean from a strategy perspective. Yeah, have a harder time. So like the people [00:30:25] that can do that, that middle piece where it's like maybe you're not doing all the research, but you [00:30:30] can think really strategically and you can connect it to what the design should be for the [00:30:35] business.

[00:30:35] Sara Fortier: Yeah, those people always have work.

[00:30:38] Gerry Scullion: So where does, I [00:30:40] hate this too little, little letter word. I, [00:30:45] I know. It's like surely you're feeling, um, that [00:30:50] conversation. Um, yeah. More and more with clients. Yeah. They're saying, well, can [00:30:55] we just use ai? Do you have anyone who you can help us with this? Yeah. Help design an [00:31:00] ai.

[00:31:00] Gerry Scullion: Where is that at in your mind?

[00:31:03] Sara Fortier: Yeah, I, I mean, I've [00:31:05] struggled with it. I have my good days and my bad days with what I think the future. We talk about bad

[00:31:09] Gerry Scullion: days. [00:31:10]

[00:31:11] Sara Fortier: I'm an optimist, so I like to focus on the good.

[00:31:13] Gerry Scullion: Lots of half empty here [00:31:15] today, folks.

[00:31:17] Sara Fortier: No, I think, I think, you know, you worry. Of [00:31:20] course I'm worried sometimes, you know, I'm like, oh God.

[00:31:22] Sara Fortier: It, you know, there's, there's. Like [00:31:25] AI platforms out there that are saying they can make personas or that they're, you [00:31:30] know, doing like lovable, which does like UX work and uh, like [00:31:35] wire frames and prototypes and stuff. Right. Um, so there's tools coming out that are pretty [00:31:40] powerful and you know, that it's rapidly like only gonna get better quickly.

[00:31:44] Sara Fortier: [00:31:45] Right? Yeah. Um, so I have my moments where I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm building a business. [00:31:50] That is about finding people that do this for clients like that, [00:31:55] you know, that were, in theory, AI could replace us. And then, and then I'm like, no, [00:32:00] chill up for a second here. Yeah, like a AI is going to make us better [00:32:05] and faster.

[00:32:06] Sara Fortier: The outputs more efficient, you know, but [00:32:10] it, it can't do the empathy piece, it can't do that complex thinking. It can't herd cats, [00:32:15] which is what we do. Yeah. Like all, you got tons of different stakeholders that have all these different opinions and [00:32:20] perspectives and they don't get along. Like AI is not gonna solve that.

[00:32:23] Gerry Scullion: A hundred percent. [00:32:25] In terms I keep on saying in terms of today, I don't know what's in terms of, in terms of why I'm saying [00:32:30] that, but generally, when you are engaging with clients, [00:32:35] the, they might ask for, say, five user experience designers. Yeah. [00:32:40] Like an ingredients list for a cake. But you know that that cake is gonna be, um, if you [00:32:45] want a shit sandwich.

[00:32:46] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What role do you play [00:32:50] in making sure that they're not creating. Potential sandwich like that, [00:32:55] um, are you able to intervene and say, actually, you know what, it doesn't sound like you really need [00:33:00] these, these kind of people. Yeah. What you're actually looking for is something a little bit more further upstream and then maybe [00:33:05] six months time come back.

[00:33:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And then you'd be more ready for this. Do you provide, is that a [00:33:10] consultancy piece or where does that sit in the mix?

[00:33:12] Sara Fortier: Yeah. I mean that we, we don't charge for that, [00:33:15] but that is just a big part of like why our clients go to us versus, you [00:33:20] know, in Canada, like Deloitte, Accenture. Yeah. The really big companies that [00:33:25] also do this type of stuff, um, because we are niche and we can have [00:33:30] those strategic conversations about UX or service design or HCD resourcing [00:33:35] and like, what's the type of person you need right now?

[00:33:37] Sara Fortier: And like, yeah. Um. So we [00:33:40] do have those conversations whenever a client kind of comes to us and says, Hey, I need a UX designer, [00:33:45] or whatever the role is, right? And then kind of you try to probe deeper there, like, [00:33:50] why do you need them? What are they working on? Who are they working with? And it depends on the maturity of the [00:33:55] organization that you're working with.

[00:33:56] Sara Fortier: I mean. You know, I wouldn't insult like a, a [00:34:00] really strong director of UX by being like, nah, are you sure you know what you're doing [00:34:05] there with who you need? But you've got other clients who don't have that background, uh, [00:34:10] and they need a UX designer on their team, and that's where you can really. Sort of help [00:34:15] them craft who that team member is or how many people they need and what they should be doing.[00:34:20]

[00:34:20] Gerry Scullion: Can I, um, delve into a little bit more of that, that sandwich that I'm talking about? [00:34:25] Okay. Yeah. I've been in those before. Okay. Where. [00:34:30] You, you've spoken to somebody and it's all sounds really cool. And then you jump in. I'm [00:34:35] gonna keep up the sandwich metaphor. Okay. Right. Or the analogy, which one is it? I'm not too sure.

[00:34:39] Gerry Scullion: And [00:34:40] then you find yourself in the middle of that sandwich and you're saying, actually, I don't wanna be in the [00:34:45] sandwich anymore. This is a really bad situation to be in as. How, [00:34:50] from, how do you handle that from a business owner's perspective where you've kind of committed [00:34:55] to the relationship, you've got the contract in place, and then you've put somebody who you believe is [00:35:00] quite good and they're able to the situations quite well.

[00:35:03] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And picking the to you and. [00:35:05] I am not gonna be able to survive here.

[00:35:07] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:35:08] Gerry Scullion: That has to happen more often than not. [00:35:10] And low designer it does happen.

[00:35:11] Sara Fortier: It for sure happens.

[00:35:12] Gerry Scullion: Can I talk about that? Because we can paint the rosy picture of like [00:35:15] saying, Hey listen, you can make money by doing this.

[00:35:17] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:35:17] Gerry Scullion: That is a reality.

[00:35:18] Gerry Scullion: It is very tough. [00:35:20] And you look at the statistics at the moment where designers and in particular researchers are burning out much [00:35:25] quicker than any other discipline design. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Walk me through how you can handle that. [00:35:30]

[00:35:30] Sara Fortier: Yeah, you're right. I, I often talk about the difference between, and I [00:35:35] feel like is whether, whether you're a design researcher, UX research, service designer, design strategist, [00:35:40] whatever the title is, but you're all kind of doing the same thing.

[00:35:42] Sara Fortier: Like, you know, you're working with the [00:35:45] fuzzy front end, the ambiguity and the stakeholder piece, and then the UX [00:35:50] designers, or the UX UI designers maybe have, and they might disagree a slightly [00:35:55] easier time. Um, yeah. But, uh, yeah, so. [00:36:00] Oh gosh, I lost the, the, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah.

[00:36:03] Gerry Scullion: Balancing those different pieces [00:36:05] because you're gonna have to let somebody down.

[00:36:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:36:10] Yeah. What can you do in those situations? Yeah.

[00:36:13] Sara Fortier: So how do we handle it? So we do, [00:36:15] again, so we do get those messages from, from our contractors sometimes and, and [00:36:20] I think. I always start with empathy because I've been in [00:36:25] those situations too. Yeah. I know what those projects are like. I know how hard it is.

[00:36:29] Sara Fortier: So [00:36:30] because we're designers, finding designers, we have designers in in house on, [00:36:35] on our staff, like we have those conversations with them that are just real. Like, tell me what's really [00:36:40] going on. Is your PO being really difficult? Is there a difficult stakeholder? How are you [00:36:45] navigating that? You know. Is there a toxicity in the team?

[00:36:48] Sara Fortier: Like just really try to get [00:36:50] to the root cause before saying, okay, while you're done, you're done. Like, you [00:36:55] know, it's really trying to actually understand and because we've been in those [00:37:00] situations, like we can ask the right questions to really try to get to like what's going on. [00:37:05] And then we do a lot of coaching, like, you know, I was on a [00:37:10] call not that long ago with a contractor talking about this very exact.

[00:37:14] Sara Fortier: [00:37:15] Type of problem. Um, and you know, I was talking to her about, you know, [00:37:20] how are you leading, like how are you showing up? You know, are you kind of being shy and pulling [00:37:25] back now because of these things that are. Happening? Or are you like stepping [00:37:30] up and are you also being empathetic to the other people?

[00:37:33] Sara Fortier: Right? Like yeah, we [00:37:35] can get really caught up in, oh, well they said this, they don't like me, they don't care about [00:37:40] this. Like research and you know, the work that I've been trying to do means nothing. [00:37:45] Like we have all these stories that we tell ourselves. So it's so much about mindset. So I think the first thing [00:37:50] that I do is.

[00:37:51] Sara Fortier: Talk to them for real as humans, what's going [00:37:55] on? Then try to coach them on mindset piece and how to navigate the [00:38:00] organization and give them really tactical tips that they could try first just to see if it improves the team [00:38:05] dynamics. And then I check, you know, we check in at like after 30 days. [00:38:10] Hey, how's it going?

[00:38:10] Sara Fortier: Has it improved at all? Did you try those things? Um, and. [00:38:15] In some cases, you can talk to the client, uh, you know about it and, and have some [00:38:20] say. And it really depends on who the client is and, and if they're, you [00:38:25] know, if they have the ability, they can try to move things. But sometimes if it's a PO or a [00:38:30] stakeholder, they can't do anything about

[00:38:32] Gerry Scullion: that.

[00:38:32] Gerry Scullion: The person who's bringing you in, and you have to say, listen, [00:38:35] and then you're almost letting the cat outta the bag because you're saying, we know they're not, they're not [00:38:40] happy, and they've told us you're not happy. And then it creates an extra layer. [00:38:45] Yeah. Stuff to navigate for them within the organization?

[00:38:47] Gerry Scullion: Yes.

[00:38:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah, so, so [00:38:50] that the, you know, we kind of, we let, we usually let our clients know if we feel like [00:38:55] they're, they're really struggling or there's a flight risk there. If it's someone who's just sort of saying like, [00:39:00] I don't know, it's, I'm kind of, it's not great. I'm not going anywhere right now. We might [00:39:05] wait on that and just see if we can help them through it.

[00:39:08] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, [00:39:10] yeah. What does success look like for, uh, a contractor [00:39:15] within outlet out, out Whitley? Sorry.

[00:39:18] Sara Fortier: Yeah, I mean, I [00:39:20] think for us, success is those people that can navigate stakeholders. Uh, [00:39:25] people who can jump into any situation, ramp up really quick. Uh, love [00:39:30] the juicy, messy stuff. And, um, they find their way.[00:39:35]

[00:39:35] Sara Fortier: Like you have to be as a contractor, very comfortable not being fully [00:39:40] onboarded with a really long ramp up plan. You know, you don't get a 30, 60, 90 day [00:39:45] plan when you're a contractor most of the time. Right. So you have to be. Totally [00:39:50] okay. Being a self-starter, like finding your own work to, to like, [00:39:55] you know, introduce yourself to stakeholders, have coffee chats with your team, especially if you're a remote contractor.[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Sara Fortier: Yeah. Um, like it's on you to, to do that. Don't wait for somebody to assign you work. Don't [00:40:05] wait for somebody to say, Hey, do you wanna join this meeting? Like, insert yourself. [00:40:10] Absolutely. Um, so I think those, that's really important. When people start to hear your [00:40:15] voice and they get to know you, uh, that is also very good.

[00:40:19] Sara Fortier: I think when [00:40:20] you have people that are showing up too much like a, a lamb, let's say, [00:40:25] um, where they're being really quiet and they're not sort of [00:40:30] contributing to the conversation. Uh. That it, it, that [00:40:35] still can work because maybe that person is totally gonna be happy doing that and being [00:40:40] quiet and stuff like that.

[00:40:40] Sara Fortier: But if they're being quiet because they feel like they can't raise their voice, but they [00:40:45] internally they want to, that's another issue. Right. So, [00:40:50] um, anyway, that was a long ramble, but I feel like those are some things.

[00:40:52] Gerry Scullion: It is. And the reason why I was calling [00:40:55] that out, Sarah, is there's people listening here at the moment who.

[00:40:59] Gerry Scullion: May sense that in the, [00:41:00] in the near future, they may be retrenched made, redundant, whatever it's in. Yeah. [00:41:05] And it gives them an opportunity to really start positioning and thinking themselves. Okay. Well if, if [00:41:10] the future looks like it might be more of a gig economy, more contract, yeah. As a [00:41:15] thing. This is what's expected of you.

[00:41:17] Gerry Scullion: These, these are the things that you can get ahead of. [00:41:20] Um, and obviously if you're in Canada, you can contact Sarah and like Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Through [00:41:25] those kind of o obvious connections to be made here in this podcast. But if you are out there and [00:41:30] you're anywhere in the world, like I've done contracting before, it is not the same as a [00:41:35] freelance piece.

[00:41:35] Gerry Scullion: It's not the same. As, uh, you know, going in into a [00:41:40] full-time role and just getting paid more money. Yeah. There's certain responsibilities that you have to be able to do. Yeah. [00:41:45] And you, you need to be a self-starter. Yeah. So it does favor, in my [00:41:50] experience, a certain behavioral type where people are a little bit more willing [00:41:55] to get outta their comfort zone.

[00:41:56] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. To. Be more vulnerable I guess, as well. [00:42:00] Yeah. And, and try new things. Um, but generally speaking that's the [00:42:05] business model that you're going after at the moment. Yeah. At out Whitley. So yeah. I wish you the very [00:42:10] best of luck, uh, Sarah, in all of this. It sounds like you're doing. You don't need any [00:42:15] look, you don't need any wire.

[00:42:16] Gerry Scullion: Boom. But, uh, if people want [00:42:20] to follow your journey, I know you're talking about a rebrand and all of this kind of stuff, hope you haven't let the cat outta the [00:42:25] bag, but yeah, if they wanna follow you, what's the best way for them to do that? [00:42:30]

[00:42:30] Sara Fortier: Yeah, uh, definitely on my LinkedIn. So just, uh, Sarah Fortier on LinkedIn [00:42:35] and uh, you're

[00:42:35] Gerry Scullion: at LinkedIn optimized.

[00:42:37] Sara Fortier: Yes it

[00:42:37] Gerry Scullion: is. I'm gonna check that now to make sure. [00:42:40] I'll put a link to your LinkedIn on, uh, the show notes [00:42:45] and, um, I'll also put a link to out whitley.com.

[00:42:48] Sara Fortier: Yeah, that's great.

[00:42:49] Gerry Scullion: And if you're [00:42:50] in the area of Winnipeg, do you Yes. Any other major cities in Canada [00:42:55] yet?

[00:42:55] Sara Fortier: Well, uh, yeah, we're, we are North America, so, uh, we have.[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Sara Fortier: Clients all across the US or across Canada. So, uh,

[00:43:02] Gerry Scullion: congratulations. Yeah. The best story. [00:43:05] It is, it's brilliant to hear.

[00:43:06] Sara Fortier: Yeah.

[00:43:07] Gerry Scullion: You know that there's businesses that have come outta that to the [00:43:10] second one today. Um, I've met, were literally post COVID. There's just been this [00:43:15] opportunity. Yeah. Capitalize it. So, absolutely.

[00:43:17] Gerry Scullion: Hats off to you.

[00:43:18] Sara Fortier: Oh,

[00:43:18] Gerry Scullion: thank you. Fantastic to speak to [00:43:20] you. Just wish you the very best of luck. Thank you. You too.

[00:43:24] Sara Fortier: Thanks for having me [00:43:25] [00:43:30] on.