What Dying Teaches Us About Living — Lessons from a Hospice Nurse & Designer (with Johanna Lundqvist)

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This Is HCD My [00:00:05] name is Gerry Scullion and I'm a human centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of [00:00:10] Dublin, Ireland. And today in the show, I'm delighted to welcome Johanna Linquist. [00:00:15] Originally from Sweden and now living in Germany.

[00:00:18] Gerry Scullion: Johanna is an artist and [00:00:20] designer who spent two decades as a registered nurse. Including many years in hospice [00:00:25] and palliative care as a trigger warning. We do discuss in this episode, uh, [00:00:30] end of life, and we talk about the, the process of dying as well. I'm really [00:00:35] interested in understanding what we can learn as service designers, change [00:00:40] makers, human-centered designers as well.

[00:00:42] Gerry Scullion: What we can take away, uh, from the dying [00:00:45] process in this current form. Okay, and what works well, what doesn't work well, you'll [00:00:50] hear us to explore the Swedish Memento Maori message behind the sign in your studio, [00:00:55] which says, consider the shortness of life, the certainty of death, and the length of [00:01:00] inter of eternity, and what it can teach us about how we live right now.

[00:01:03] Gerry Scullion: There's three key [00:01:05] things I wanted to really talk about in this episode. The first one. Is what dying teaches [00:01:10] us about living the real regrets Johanna heard at the bedside [00:01:15] purpose after retirement and why relationships matter more than [00:01:20] careers. The second thing is practicum compassion at the end of life, how [00:01:25] nurses read non-verbal cues, and the power of simple touch and [00:01:30] presence and the ways families can support without feeling helpless.

[00:01:34] Gerry Scullion: And [00:01:35] the third piece is reframing death. In modern culture, from hospice [00:01:40] movement to death, doulas and small human rituals that bring choice and [00:01:45] dignity back into the process. If this conversation really resonates with you, [00:01:50] please do follow the show. Leave a review, subscribe, do all the good stuff in the [00:01:55] podcast app that you're listening to it, and if you're watching.

[00:01:57] Gerry Scullion: YouTube, please do like the video, drop a [00:02:00] comment with your takeaway and subscribe. It really helps us find more people who are just like you [00:02:05] and find and discuss these important discussions. It's a fantastic episode. Joanna is a [00:02:10] rockstar. I know you're gonna love it. Let's jump straight in.[00:02:15] [00:02:20]

[00:02:22] Gerry Scullion: Johanna, I'm delight to have you on the podcast. [00:02:25] Um, maybe we'll start off for our guests. Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you [00:02:30] do.

[00:02:30] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Right now I live in Germany. Uh, I'm originally from Sweden. [00:02:35] Um, I, I'm a nurse, haven't been working as a nurse for. [00:02:40] About 10 years I've been working as an artist and designer.

[00:02:42] Johanna Lundqvist: But, uh, for about 30 years I was [00:02:45] a registered nurse in Sweden. And for 10 of those I worked in, [00:02:50] uh, hospice care, in palliative care. Wow. So that is my main subject [00:02:55] and interest.

[00:02:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And that's what we're gonna be speaking at, at length today. Um, but [00:03:00] before we jump in, you mentioned just before we start recording that sign in the background, rather than watching on YouTube, [00:03:05] maybe give us, uh, a little bit of description of, you know, what, what it's saying first of all.

[00:03:09] Gerry Scullion: 'cause you [00:03:10] mentioned it was in Swedish. Okay. What, what it means to you as well.

[00:03:14] Johanna Lundqvist: Well, [00:03:15] uh, the sign in my back, I don't know if everyone will be able to see it, but it's, it's an old [00:03:20] fashioned, um. Picture frame. Mm-hmm. From, and [00:03:25] it is from the beginning of the last century, and the text is in Swedish and it [00:03:30] says,[00:03:35]

[00:03:35] Johanna Lundqvist: and, and that means [00:03:40] consider the shortness of

[00:03:43] Johanna Lundqvist: life, the [00:03:45] certainty of death and the length

[00:03:48] Johanna Lundqvist: of eternity. [00:03:50] And basically they, it's just a thing [00:03:55] that we used to do in many, many centuries before. There's something called Memento Maori, which [00:04:00] basically remember your mortal, remember death. Um, and we used to have that much more [00:04:05] present in our lives earlier.

[00:04:07] Johanna Lundqvist: Uh, and in the last about a [00:04:10] hundred years, we'd no longer have signs like this on the walls if it's not more for. [00:04:15] For fun. You know, like a little joke people will see like, ha ha, you know?

[00:04:19] Gerry Scullion: [00:04:20] Absolutely. And what does it mean to you? Well, what does that, it's there as a, as a framed [00:04:25] piece behind you. So like tell us a little bit about how it resonates with you.

[00:04:29] Johanna Lundqvist: I [00:04:30] think it resonates with me because my interest is transition and all that [00:04:35] is about transition. Yeah. Uh, one of my main interest transitions in life [00:04:40] and how I think we should be considerate about how we live and where we live and, [00:04:45] and about death to knowing that that is coming in one way or another for all of [00:04:50] us.

[00:04:50] Johanna Lundqvist: Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a reminder. And also I think it's, it's, I think it's quite beautiful. [00:04:55] It's, you know, people talk about, um, mindfulness. I think this is kind of mindfulness. [00:05:00]

[00:05:00] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I live in the moment. Mm-hmm. You mentioned there that people, um, in previous [00:05:05] centuries were, um, a lot more aware of death. What do you think is stopping [00:05:10] people from, um, or like a modern society stopping people from realizing that death [00:05:15] is as present as it is?

[00:05:17] Johanna Lundqvist: Especially I, I talk about Western [00:05:20] society. That's what I'm part of myself, and I mean, the world is a huge place and it's different. [00:05:25]

[00:05:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:05:25] Johanna Lundqvist: and the s are different all over, but in western society in the [00:05:30] last hundred years maybe or so, mm-hmm. Or maybe 75 years, we [00:05:35] have been more and more detached from death in the way that it's [00:05:40] not so visible in our daily lives anymore.

[00:05:43] Johanna Lundqvist: We used to have more [00:05:45] generational living, uh, before, well before industrialization [00:05:50] really. And, and also maybe like 50 years after that now. [00:05:55] Uh, we sort of have living where people are [00:06:00] getting old and they live in their own apartments. And if you get ill, most of us go to [00:06:05] hospital. Mm-hmm. And, uh, if you're very ill, that's probably where you die.

[00:06:09] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:06:10] But 75% of everyone in Western society dies in hospitals and relatives [00:06:15] becomes visitors. They don't become part of

[00:06:19] Gerry Scullion: the

[00:06:19] Johanna Lundqvist: process of, of the [00:06:20] process to some degree.

[00:06:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. And that's a nice segue [00:06:25] into, you know, that those 10 years that you mentioned there, where you were working as primarily as a hospice nurse [00:06:30] mm-hmm.

[00:06:30] Gerry Scullion: That transitioning period of moving from life to death. [00:06:35] What's that experience like? Um, as someone who's observed death [00:06:40] close up for 10 years, um. I know it's such a morbid [00:06:45] subject for a lot of people, but I'm really interested to explore this topic because in some cultures [00:06:50] it's taboo. Mm-hmm. Not on my culture.

[00:06:52] Gerry Scullion: I'm Irish and, you know, we, we [00:06:55] celebrate death in a, in a different way to, to other parts of the world. But I'd love to [00:07:00] understand your own perspective of what that looks like.

[00:07:03] Johanna Lundqvist: The transition, how it is for the [00:07:05] people that I have watched dying? Is that, or, or being the people going along [00:07:10] actually who are

[00:07:11] Gerry Scullion: dying as opposed to the The relatives, the family.

[00:07:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Or the [00:07:15] hospitals called them visitors.

[00:07:16] Johanna Lundqvist: I must say my absolutely biggest surprise [00:07:20] when I started to work and that kept surprising me all through those [00:07:25] years was how incredibly brave people are.

[00:07:28] Gerry Scullion: Mm. You know?

[00:07:29] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:07:30] Because we are all scared. It is really weird. We really, really don't know what's gonna [00:07:35] happen.

[00:07:35] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And people are not only scared of what's gonna happen [00:07:40] after we are actually dead, but they're also scared of the dying process. You know, the dying [00:07:45] themselves, getting ill, being in pain. All these things that people think will gonna happen and sometimes happen. [00:07:50]

[00:07:50] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:07:50] Johanna Lundqvist: Um, but the people I met in [00:07:55] hospice.

[00:07:57] Johanna Lundqvist: If everything has gone really, really well. You know, [00:08:00] when you, we talk about palliative care, they have gone through a long illness by then.

[00:08:04] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:08:05]

[00:08:05] Johanna Lundqvist: And they have gone through treatments. They have had different types of treatments. They [00:08:10] have got the new hopes, and then the hopes have been broken because the [00:08:15] treatments haven't worked the way it was hoped.

[00:08:17] Johanna Lundqvist: Mm-hmm. And when they come to us, they [00:08:20] know that death is gonna happen. When they're in hospice, they know death is gonna [00:08:25] happen and hopefully their relatives know that death is gonna happen. And for most hospice [00:08:30] patients, it happens. It, it is a pretty universal rule that when you are in a [00:08:35] hospice, it's about 21 days is a, is a median.

[00:08:38] Johanna Lundqvist: Some are longer, some are much shorter, [00:08:40] but, but about 21 days. So, you know, it's very finite. Yeah.

[00:08:44] Johanna Lundqvist: It's, it's [00:08:45] gonna happen. And at that point people are. [00:08:50]

[00:08:50] Johanna Lundqvist: Much calmer than Yes. We help with, we help with medications. If there's [00:08:55] anxiety and there's different, there's physiological anxiety, there's psychological anxiety, and we can help [00:09:00] with that and with pain.

[00:09:01] Johanna Lundqvist: And if we have all that in check as [00:09:05] best as we can, people just leave it to the very last moment they're awake. [00:09:10]

[00:09:10] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:11] Johanna Lundqvist: Um,

[00:09:12] Johanna Lundqvist: and then how people just deal with the loss of [00:09:15] function, you know?

[00:09:17] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:09:17] Johanna Lundqvist: Two weeks ago I could go up and go to the bathroom [00:09:20] myself. Now I need someone who walks with me.

[00:09:23] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Yeah.

[00:09:24] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:09:25] People react differently to it basically. I usually say if you were really, [00:09:30] if you were very, very stubborn in life, you're gonna be stubborn all the way into death. [00:09:35] You know really? Yeah. You can

[00:09:36] Gerry Scullion: see those patterns.

[00:09:37] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Yeah. You, you're gonna keep fighting it. Absolutely. [00:09:40] If you, if you were confrontational and loud, you're gonna be confrontational and loud into the [00:09:45] very end.

[00:09:45] Johanna Lundqvist: It doesn't stop. Yeah. It's your personality and you, you know, you might be [00:09:50] swearing all the way to the very moment you don't speak anymore. It

[00:09:53] Gerry Scullion: happens. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Isn't that [00:09:55] interesting? Yeah. So. One of the pieces, like, I guess from a service design perspective, sorry to [00:10:00] bring it back to the cold functions of, um, no, what, like, I [00:10:05] know you, you studied design as well.

[00:10:06] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. But in terms of the, the kind of [00:10:10] the control that you might have as a hospice nurse on that, is there any. [00:10:15] Kind of governance around what you can and can't do in those instances? [00:10:20] Or are you given kind of free reign to just support where possible? What does [00:10:25] that look like in terms of the freedom to respond to those requests?[00:10:30]

[00:10:30] Johanna Lundqvist: I mean, there are rules and regulations when it comes to medications, of course. Mm-hmm. I can't, as [00:10:35] a nurse, I can't decide what amount of which drugs [00:10:40] a patient is gonna have. I mean, I'm gonna have a doctor's order for that and, uh. [00:10:45] And what I do have is a range so I can, I can [00:10:50] decide on my own. There's a range of different things that the doctors say.

[00:10:53] Johanna Lundqvist: You can combine these different things in a [00:10:55] good combination that you think will work. So I will have a certain freedom within that framework when [00:11:00] it comes to, when it comes to support on a psychological level or, or [00:11:05] physical level or, or mental existential. [00:11:10] There's basically it, it, it is the order, the regular, we want to do no [00:11:15] harm.

[00:11:15] Johanna Lundqvist: We want to help. Yeah. Uh, and however we need to do that, we do. [00:11:20] Yeah. And, uh, we really try to, we try to listen to the [00:11:25] person. Yeah. Yeah. We really need to hear what is it they want. It's not what. [00:11:30] Necessarily what I see is needed. I need to ask what they want. You know, one of my least [00:11:35] favorite things in the world that people say you should treat P people like you want to be treated.

[00:11:39] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah.

[00:11:39] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. A

[00:11:39] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:11:40] little. I don't think that at all. I need to ask people how they want to be treated. 'cause I might be [00:11:45] completely wrong.

[00:11:46] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, true. Actually, when you say it out loud like that, [00:11:50] um, I said, yeah, I agree. Like, you know, like I, I treat people with respect, but like, sometimes people, [00:11:55] you know, may have different perspectives on what that looks like.

[00:11:58] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. [00:12:00] Especially when they're dying as well. Mm-hmm. Like sometimes they're nonverbal. Mm-hmm. How do you handle [00:12:05] those kind of cues? Like, what, what does that look like? Because I know I haven't gone through [00:12:10] my, my own father when he passed, um, I was, I was there and it was during COVID and all that [00:12:15] kinda stuff.

[00:12:15] Gerry Scullion: I'm sorry.

[00:12:16] Gerry Scullion: Do you imagine the regulations would've been like a lot more stringent? [00:12:20]

[00:12:20] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:20] Gerry Scullion: Um, but the nurses, this is where it all started for me, the nurses and all the, the care [00:12:25] around it was just like mind blowing. I was like, wow, these people are. Walking [00:12:30] angels. Um, and that's as close, and I mean that like when people say, oh, they're an angel, that they [00:12:35] are actually walking angels.

[00:12:36] Gerry Scullion: They're there to help guide people into the next [00:12:40] realm, uh, wherever, whatever that might be. But how do you handle that, that non-verbal side? [00:12:45] That was like something that I was like, wow, you're almost. In a transitional space here, [00:12:50] like in a liminality where you're able to understand those requests?

[00:12:54] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, and we do, we, [00:12:55] we get very good at seeing people, I would say.

[00:12:58] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, we do, we do [00:13:00] look very, very carefully. And Summit just learned. You know, you, you [00:13:05] look for what a person's face look like. Is it tense? Is it has, does it have [00:13:10] a wrinkle between the eyebrows? That's probably, can be anxiety, can be [00:13:15] pain. Um, are they being physically anxious? They will have their [00:13:20] hands up, you know, doing things, picking in the air.

[00:13:23] Johanna Lundqvist: That's a, there's a [00:13:25] physiological anxiety in that, uh. And all those things. [00:13:30] We, we don't want people to stop from moving around, but if you see this [00:13:35] restlessness in the body, you do try to help with that. And you can do that in different ways. You can just [00:13:40] make sure they know you are there by touch generally, and words.

[00:13:43] Johanna Lundqvist: Uh, but there's [00:13:45] again, those medications that we really can help with. For these things. And so we, we [00:13:50] look for those, we look for those signs, and we also look for, I mean, when we go in [00:13:55] there and we are the angels. You, you say. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:00] Um. What we do is also that we have a very clinical eye. We do [00:14:05] look for the signs of what stage is this person in right now?

[00:14:08] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. We look at the feet, [00:14:10] what does the toes look like? What do the fingertips look like? What, what does the nose tip [00:14:15] look like? Yeah. Um, so we are, [00:14:20] in one way, we are just trained. We're really trained. But with experience, you also [00:14:25] start to have a very, very strong sense of. [00:14:30] Uh, there's something called the silent knowledge of nurses.

[00:14:33] Johanna Lundqvist: And it sounds very woo, [00:14:35]

[00:14:35] Gerry Scullion: but

[00:14:35] Johanna Lundqvist: it's also true. Um, sometimes you just know that something is [00:14:40] happening because we, we say it's nurses who have it. 'cause we are the ones that's generally [00:14:45] closer to the patient for longer periods of times. The doctors have the medical know knowledge, [00:14:50] uh, but they are not by the bedside as much.

[00:14:53] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:14:54] Johanna Lundqvist: Uh, [00:14:55] quite often when you as an experienced nurse come into a room, you can sense something is going on. [00:15:00] I mean, anxiety smells in a special way, and I mean that [00:15:05] quite literally. Wow. That you learn 'cause we, we exude stress hormones.

[00:15:09] Gerry Scullion: [00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And many of us can just pick that up. It's like, okay, something is going on.

[00:15:14] Johanna Lundqvist: I [00:15:15] don't know exactly. Yeah. I need to keep an extra eye here.

[00:15:19] Gerry Scullion: [00:15:20] Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I remember, um, when I lived in Australia, I used to work [00:15:25] with this, this really, uh, great designer called Faruk Abdi, and he [00:15:30] introduced me to the work of, um, Robin Youngson, who's in New Zealand. [00:15:35] And I think. He was working in May.

[00:15:39] Gerry Scullion: I think he's a [00:15:40] doctor, but he mentioned, Brooke mentioned to me at the time that there was scientific evidence [00:15:45] to show that when people were going in to, um, have surgery that [00:15:50] touch just generally holding that person's hand, uh, as they were being [00:15:55] administered. Um, drugs for anthesis. They, [00:16:00] um. They saw an increase in recovery speed, and that whole kind of [00:16:05] connection between just holding somebody's hand kind of has these, all [00:16:10] these extra benefits to it.

[00:16:12] Johanna Lundqvist: I, I think touch is one of the absolutely most [00:16:15] important parts of the human experience. Yeah. To be honest, [00:16:20] not only within a caring setting, uh, without touch, we wither. [00:16:25] Um, we are social beings supposed to have a group around us, and I'm not [00:16:30] only talking a partner or sex or anything, just the physical touch of being able to [00:16:35] have a hug sometimes or sitting beside someone knowing that they're there [00:16:40] holding a hand.

[00:16:41] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, it's, it's vital. It, I mean [00:16:45] that touch. I, I, when I was working in a nursing home many, [00:16:50] many years ago, and, uh, that was not a palliative care n um, unit, but it was very old [00:16:55] people with dementia, so they were there then died too. Um, [00:17:00] at the time we gave quite a lot of, of sleeping medication to [00:17:05] patients.

[00:17:05] Johanna Lundqvist: We were very short staffed. This was in the eight early eighties. Mid [00:17:10] eighties rather. Um, and we were quite short staffed and people were put [00:17:15] to bed way too early, so they woke up way too early. And that was sort of [00:17:20] said being that they didn't sleep well and they got drugs, this is, it was not very nice care.[00:17:25]

[00:17:25] Johanna Lundqvist: Right? Yeah. Um, but what we realized, or, or what I [00:17:30] started to do, I, I like to sing, you know, I like songs and one way that I [00:17:35] enjoy. Communicated with people, dementia, and it's even more nowadays that even if you [00:17:40] don't remember your family or you don't remember your words anymore, you might [00:17:45] remember your songs.

[00:17:46] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, yeah. Especially the songs you sang as a child. [00:17:50] Yeah. So I would sit and sing with my old [00:17:55] people there. Mm. All, all the lullabies that they had had when they sang for their own children [00:18:00] or that they had to their mom or dad, sing for them way back then. Yeah. And [00:18:05] that, and when I come to touch is that the rubbing of the forehead, and this is something, I don't know if you've [00:18:10] seen that, but vets do that with animals quite a lot.

[00:18:12] Johanna Lundqvist: To calm them down. They rub the forehead. This [00:18:15] works with people too. So, right. That works better than in a sleeping pill [00:18:20] sometimes, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's just the touch, the knowing that someone isn't there to [00:18:25] convey this. A memory of a time when you maybe were very [00:18:30] safe and very happy.

[00:18:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Johanna Lundqvist: As a child.

[00:18:33] Gerry Scullion: So providing care, I mean that [00:18:35] like in like an attend sense. I remember, um, for anyone [00:18:40] who's part of the community, the, the, this is HCD community. I mentioned last year that I was reading [00:18:45] Brony Ware's book, the Five Regrets of the Dying. Um, [00:18:50] too much kind of like amusement from my, uh, my, my family. They're like, why are you reading that?

[00:18:54] Gerry Scullion: And I was like, [00:18:55] 'cause there's so much to learn from, you know, life as it's moving on. Like, you know. [00:19:00] Ha. Have you read that book? Have you, have you, do you, do you know the book Brony? Where I know

[00:19:03] Johanna Lundqvist: the book. I haven't read it.

[00:19:04] Gerry Scullion: You [00:19:05] haven't read it? No. Um. And I'm just keen to understand your own perspective on that.

[00:19:09] Gerry Scullion: Like [00:19:10] have you ever had those kind of pre stages before they fall into that, [00:19:15] you know, that final stretch of death? Mm-hmm. Um, any experiences that maybe you can share with [00:19:20] us on the wisdom of, you know, how people have lived their lives and what some of those regrets [00:19:25] might be? Yeah,

[00:19:27] Johanna Lundqvist: I think. The greatest [00:19:30] regrets, and I, I know this was probably what was said in this book as well, I've seen research and I can, and I [00:19:35] can only agree with this, is that the one hugest regret, especially [00:19:40] in Western society again, is that people didn't spend enough time with friends and [00:19:45] family.

[00:19:45] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. That they, that they took their work and their [00:19:50] career a bit too serious. They always felt they pushed things they wanted to do [00:19:55] into the future. We're going to do this when we are retired. You know, I quite often had [00:20:00] patients who said, 'cause they got ill. Maybe it, it is not very uncommon that you [00:20:05] are get a cancer, another illness just around retirement age.

[00:20:08] Johanna Lundqvist: It's very common because [00:20:10] transitions even good, good or bad transitions in life will be a [00:20:15] stress for your body. And that can absolutely, that can just kickstart something. Yeah. Um. [00:20:20] And that I heard so many times when people say we were [00:20:25] supposed to do so many thing when we were retired and now we won't be able to

[00:20:28] Gerry Scullion: do it.

[00:20:29] Johanna Lundqvist: So I think [00:20:30] that not doing things they want to do during life, and especially with friends and family, [00:20:35] that is the biggest. And then of course, excuse me, then of course, [00:20:40] um, not talking to each other, [00:20:45] just pushing things under the carpet that they should have brought up. You [00:20:50] know, having quarrels with relatives and, and not trying to mend [00:20:55] it, all that comes up towards the end.

[00:20:57] Johanna Lundqvist: And, uh, when you're at the [00:21:00] end, that's reg generally not the time to fix it. When you're dying. It's not the time to [00:21:05] fix it. That should have been done earlier and that's why there's another why, [00:21:10] again, the sign. Remember that we don't have an infinite [00:21:15] amount of time in this life. Yeah. If you have regrets, try to deal with them.

[00:21:19] Johanna Lundqvist: As [00:21:20] soon as you can.

[00:21:21] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, that's, that's true. Um, [00:21:25] w the, the working and focusing on your career is something that, [00:21:30] uh, I've heard time and time again, like from people who are older since don't stop working so [00:21:35] hard. Like, stop going upstairs. I, I work in my attic. This is where I'm, so work is [00:21:40] always within kind of close proximity to my life with my family and my kids.[00:21:45]

[00:21:45] Gerry Scullion: Um. There was a piece there that you mentioned, which has just jumped outta [00:21:50] my mind, uh, at the moment around, uh, the next piece. I'm gonna have [00:21:55] to cut this out. I was about to make a segue there and I forgot what it was. [00:22:00] Um, but generally speaking. How do you see, um, [00:22:05] how you've learned all of these different aspects from, from working with people who are passing on?[00:22:10]

[00:22:10] Gerry Scullion: How has that affected you as a, as a human, uh, as a practitioner, [00:22:15] um, in your own life?

[00:22:17] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Um, you know, people [00:22:20] quite often have asked me if I get afraid of dying. [00:22:25] Because I have seen so many po you know, are you afraid of death? Are you afraid of dying? And I said, [00:22:30] not for a second. I'm very afraid of not living while I am still [00:22:35] alive.

[00:22:36] Gerry Scullion: That's a good quote there. Yeah, that's a good quote there.

[00:22:39] Johanna Lundqvist: But I [00:22:40] would say that that is, that is the one, you know, the one thing I, [00:22:45] I went to the bank once I had inherited some money. The bank guy who was very, very [00:22:50] young, you know, one of these really. Yeah, in Swedish, we call them young lions, [00:22:55] you know, on the go I'm going places kind of guy.

[00:22:58] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And he looked, he looked at, [00:23:00] uh, he looked at this lump sum I had, and he was, oh, I would buy a car or I, [00:23:05] you do this and then half of this you should invest in, in money, in, in some sort of [00:23:10] saving account that you can get to in 30 years. And I'm kind of, what do you mean in 30 years? I don't know if I'm alive in [00:23:15] 30 years.

[00:23:15] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. I'll not be alive after Christmas, you know? True. And this is, this is how our [00:23:20] brains work. Why, why think long term when we'd have no idea, [00:23:25] you know? 'cause I've seen so many people who were absolutely thought they have another 40 [00:23:30] years in front of them and then they didn't see another Christmas. Yeah, [00:23:35] absolutely.

[00:23:35] Johanna Lundqvist: And, and, and with this is very important that my, my [00:23:40] experience is of course very, very, um, what's the word in English? [00:23:45] Twisted. Because of course I see the people who [00:23:50] didn't get cured. You know, most people with cancer get cured these days. [00:23:55] They really do. Or they can live for a very long time, symptom free or or cancer [00:24:00] free before it comes back,

[00:24:01] Gerry Scullion: you know?

[00:24:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, that's true.

[00:24:03] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And the people I saw were the [00:24:05] ones that didn't. Yeah, but that still, that still [00:24:10] shapes my way of living or my view of life, because that's what I saw [00:24:15] mostly. You

[00:24:15] Gerry Scullion: saw, I know what it was that I was gonna say to you. Mm-hmm. Um, I interviewed [00:24:20] Hector Garcia, who wrote two very popular books in Ikigai, which is a Japanese piece around [00:24:25] you're, you're kind of like what you're good at.

[00:24:27] Gerry Scullion: Society needs, what you can get paid for and so forth. And the [00:24:30] intersection of all those in Venn diagram is kind of what you should be doing with your life. You [00:24:35] know, that's the bits that you're really interested in. And he's got statistics to show that [00:24:40] people who retire, um, without a purpose, who retire to abruptly.[00:24:45]

[00:24:45] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. Um, they see a dramatic increase in serious health implications, [00:24:50] um, which is why I, I think I see it less amongst human-centered [00:24:55] designers and service designers in particular because there seems to be this drive, this [00:25:00] fire that people realize that there is potential there to change systems and [00:25:05] they carry that forward in, into later life, hopefully.

[00:25:08] Gerry Scullion: Um, but [00:25:10] generally speaking, that purpose piece. Um, I, I'm keen to understand, [00:25:15] you know, what, what advice based on, you know, the, the people that you've [00:25:20] helped move on to the next life, if you want to say it like that. [00:25:25] Um, what advice would you give to people who are kinda struggling to find that [00:25:30] purpose at the moment in their own life?

[00:25:32] Gerry Scullion: So they can help, you know, live a [00:25:35] more meaningful life?

[00:25:36] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Be kind to yourself. Mm-hmm. To start with, don't [00:25:40] be too hard on yourself. Um, and [00:25:45] don't stop looking, but don't stress too much about not finding it. [00:25:50] Yeah. Yeah. Reach out to people. Um, [00:25:55] trust people. Try to trust people.

[00:25:57] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:25:58] Johanna Lundqvist: Um,

[00:25:59] Johanna Lundqvist: because [00:26:00] we, we are nothing on our own.

[00:26:02] Johanna Lundqvist: We really are nothing on our own. We, we need to ask [00:26:05] people for help. Yeah.

[00:26:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I love the bells and the background as well. It very, yeah. [00:26:10] Sorry about that. You're saying that when you're talking about purpose and the bells start ringing [00:26:15] anyone listen to that? They hear the bells in the background. Yeah.

[00:26:16] Gerry Scullion: That is an indication that this is a standup moment to go and try and work and, [00:26:20] and connect with people as well. Um, but just going back to those experiences of when [00:26:25] you are working as a nurse and people were, uh, the, the [00:26:30] relatives. The family members were, were part of it. You mentioned there, and you [00:26:35] touched on Western society, on, um, you know, 75% of [00:26:40] people will die in hospitals.

[00:26:42] Gerry Scullion: What are the cultures, are you aware of that treat that kind [00:26:45] of passing, that, that process and a little bit differently just so we can explore other [00:26:50] cultures and how they do it? Maybe. More humanely and more ethically in [00:26:55] terms of they get to choose where they want to die and how they want to die. Um, [00:27:00] I mean, people choose to have, uh, babies at home and in hospitals and uh, out [00:27:05] in different locations.

[00:27:07] Gerry Scullion: It doesn't seem to have that freedom as well. So much in western [00:27:10] society. It has to be in a hospital. It's where you need to go to get the medical care.

[00:27:13] Johanna Lundqvist: I think. I think it is [00:27:15] changing. I think that's the truth, as it was up until. I would [00:27:20] say pre pandemic.

[00:27:21] Gerry Scullion: Right. Okay. Because

[00:27:22] Johanna Lundqvist: if something has, and [00:27:25] maybe if something has changed and brought death closer to us, [00:27:30] even if we didn't lose someone.

[00:27:32] Johanna Lundqvist: In the COVID epidemic, [00:27:35] it certainly brought death closer to us because it was so much in media. [00:27:40] Yeah. Uh, and we were so aware and it did affect all of our life with the [00:27:45] different jurisdictions. Uh, but I also think because [00:27:50] during the COVID epidemic, people couldn't be by the [00:27:55] bedside in the same way as they could before.

[00:27:57] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. That just showed how [00:28:00] incredibly important it is. That relatives are allowed to be [00:28:05] part of the process. Hmm. But I mean, this is the, the hospice [00:28:10] movement has been going on for what we have 60 years now, if not more. Mm-hmm. [00:28:15] Uh, and this, that was, that was a reaction to how, how people started [00:28:20] to die in factory hospitals basically.

[00:28:23] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And people had two hours [00:28:25] to come and visit, and then they had to leave and people. Didn't die with a relative [00:28:30] by the side. If they died with a staff member by the side, they were lucky, you know?

[00:28:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:28:34] Johanna Lundqvist: And so the, [00:28:35] it was, the hospice movement was created as a, as a reaction [00:28:40] against that. And I think, and, and I think the palliative movement with that, [00:28:45] we've talked more about palliative care now, which is more.

[00:28:48] Johanna Lundqvist: More the widespread [00:28:50] term. Um, I think that is developed and I think people [00:28:55] are getting more interested because people in general want to have more [00:29:00] control over their lives. Yeah. Yeah. And I think they actually start thinking [00:29:05] about if they start thinking about death, they will think about [00:29:10] alternatives as well.

[00:29:11] Johanna Lundqvist: And I would say if we talk about service design, I must say that I. [00:29:15] Within this realm of death and dying, the funeral services, [00:29:20] uh, for a long time have been very well planned. I mean, they are very, very [00:29:25] well aware about that. They are delivering a service. Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:30] If they were good is a different thing, but it's certainly were very well thought [00:29:35] through service.

[00:29:36] Johanna Lundqvist: Mm. Um, and with time people have been [00:29:40] able to, to affect, um. What the look [00:29:45] of the coffin will be like. You know, you, you can now choose, you can now [00:29:50] choose, uh, if you want to be cremated or if you, well [00:29:55] internment and what type of coffin you want. We were just at a, me and Adam, we were just at [00:30:00] a, a funeral or a memo service where, where, uh, the grandson [00:30:05] had built a coffee of the, the lady's favorite bed that she had designed herself in the, [00:30:10] in the seventies.

[00:30:11] Johanna Lundqvist: So that was the coffin that she got cremated in, in her own bed. [00:30:15] So, uh,

[00:30:16] Gerry Scullion: wow.

[00:30:17] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. So I think we are [00:30:20] getting there slowly, but we still need to talk about it for many reasons, both on personal [00:30:25] levels, but also societal level. Yeah.

[00:30:27] Gerry Scullion: Where do you think religion plays the role in [00:30:30] what happens and what doesn't happen?

[00:30:31] Gerry Scullion: Is there still some sort of, sort of [00:30:35] stronghold to those times and past? I remember, um, [00:30:40] Joe McLeod, who has been on the podcast twice, where he speaks about ends and ends of [00:30:45] services. He spoke about the difference between protest. Protest is, you know, the word I'm trying to [00:30:50] say. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the way Catholics look at death.

[00:30:54] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. [00:30:55] Um. Where we, we bring our, our dad home usually like, and we have a wake. Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] Whereas in protest, that one, [00:31:05] that one. Um, I need to get that right. 'cause my wife's a Protestant [00:31:10] protest. Um, they, they tend to put [00:31:15] people into, uh, you know, funeral homes as, as a default. Mm-hmm. [00:31:20] And I'd be keen to understand your own thoughts on that.

[00:31:23] Gerry Scullion: Like what, what is. [00:31:25] We're the, the, the bits that are holding us back to create a more humane and [00:31:30] a more, uh, sort of inclusive service around deaf. [00:31:35]

[00:31:35] Johanna Lundqvist: I think religion can do both.

[00:31:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. I think religion, religion can be [00:31:40] very, very helpful in some instances. Mm. Because it provides a [00:31:45] framework work of belief that might be very helpful.

[00:31:48] Johanna Lundqvist: And sometimes [00:31:50] in a situation of crisis, it's good to have a framework to work within [00:31:55] because you are thrown into some sort of chaos. Your entire world has [00:32:00] changed. Suddenly a person that you've had there all your life is nowhere in the world [00:32:05] anymore. That's a huge change. And suddenly you are expected to [00:32:10] make all these decisions within maybe the next couple of weeks, and then it's good [00:32:15] to have both.

[00:32:16] Johanna Lundqvist: If, if you have. A religion and a belief. It's good to have a [00:32:20] spiritual Yeah. Person to lean on and talk to. Uh, if you don't have a [00:32:25] belief, it's good to have someone else to talk to too. Yeah. Um, so I [00:32:30] think religion can be an enormous support, but it can also be a huge [00:32:35] limitation. Yeah. Um, I have seen people who are dying.[00:32:40]

[00:32:40] Johanna Lundqvist: People who are deeply religious. I've seen extremes. I mean, there are [00:32:45] inbetweens too, but the extremes that I have seen are either the ones who just can't wait because they're going to rest [00:32:50] in the arms of the Lord. They know that they will see their relatives again, and they [00:32:55] are going to be. They are gonna go to heaven and that's gonna be wonderful.

[00:32:58] Johanna Lundqvist: So they just can't wait. Yeah. [00:33:00] There are also people who are deeply religious and actually it was a vicar I'm [00:33:05] thinking about right now. He was terrified of dying 'cause he thought [00:33:10] that he had been so sinful that he would never be forgiven [00:33:15] and what he thought he had done, I have no idea. He never spoke about that.

[00:33:19] Johanna Lundqvist: Mm. [00:33:20] But he just thought that he had been such a sinner. He would be so judged and he was [00:33:25] terrified. Yeah, so, so religion can be very, very scary as [00:33:30] well. Yeah.

[00:33:30] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:32] Johanna Lundqvist: But it can be very helpful. Yeah.

[00:33:33] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, [00:33:35] I wanna talk to you about something just, just before we, we start moving into the final stages, [00:33:40] uh, of this podcast, not of life.

[00:33:42] Gerry Scullion: Uh, just put that disclaimer right there. Um, [00:33:45] there's a couple of YouTube channels out there, which hopefully I'm not gonna get too, kind of hippie dippy [00:33:50] over, um, where they talk about the stages beyond death and, you know, people who've [00:33:55] had near death experiences and come back from that. You mentioned in the [00:34:00] pre-conversation to this, this episode that, you know, [00:34:05] people see things in the room and I'd love to get your thoughts and [00:34:10] experiences ideally, um, on what that looked like and also what it [00:34:15] felt like in the room where you believed that there was.

[00:34:19] Gerry Scullion: Potentially [00:34:20] other, other people in the room you could see.

[00:34:23] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. It is more [00:34:25] common than people think. Yeah, the person dying [00:34:30] communicates, sees, feels a presence and it can be [00:34:35] of someone who died. It can also be someone who lives and is far [00:34:40] away in a different part of the world. But generally it is a loved one that come back.[00:34:45]

[00:34:47] Johanna Lundqvist: What does it feel like? Um, [00:34:50]

[00:34:51] Johanna Lundqvist: I never ever doubt people, I never tell to tell if someone [00:34:55] says that their dead wife is standing by their bedside, I would never say, no. No, [00:35:00] there's no one here. I was Just take it for the reality that this person [00:35:05] is experiencing at that one. Yeah. What it is they're experiencing, we, [00:35:10] we don't know is, is it?

[00:35:13] Johanna Lundqvist: Is it a [00:35:15] physiological reaction that our brain is creating because we need solace and [00:35:20] cons, um, consolation in this moment that is very, very difficult. Could be [00:35:25] maybe it's our brains are really, really smart in that way. So our brain chemistry does this [00:35:30] or is it something else? I, it's not up to me to say it all, but I [00:35:35] absolutely.

[00:35:36] Johanna Lundqvist: See that people who have this experience [00:35:40] in 95% of the time, it is calming. It is helping. [00:35:45] It is helping. It is loving. It is a good experience and it's never [00:35:50] anything that we would try to medicate away, you know? Yeah. Because there's a difference. There's hallucinations as [00:35:55] well, and there are generally not very, very pleasant.

[00:35:57] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and there is a [00:36:00] definite difference between. Between hallucinations and these deathbed [00:36:05] experiences,

[00:36:06] Gerry Scullion: but there's definitely a consistency between the narratives of [00:36:10] people who don't. Know each other like the Yeah, yeah,

[00:36:13] Johanna Lundqvist: yeah. No, it, I'm not gonna [00:36:15] say it happens to everyone 'cause it doesn't at all.

[00:36:16] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. But it is not uncommon. It doesn't, it's not [00:36:20] uncommon at all.

[00:36:21] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, and it doesn't have

[00:36:23] Johanna Lundqvist: to be people, it can be pets. [00:36:25]

[00:36:25] Gerry Scullion: It can be, I was just about to say, we'd mentioned about that [00:36:30] before, um, before we were speaking. But I noticed in, in Ireland they have this thing called. [00:36:35] R ip, ie. Mm-hmm. Which is a place when you die.

[00:36:39] Gerry Scullion: Um, people [00:36:40] put the funeral arrangements up there, but there's also condolences. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you can, you know, [00:36:45] people like a social media piece. Mm-hmm. But it lives on. Mm-hmm. And Ireland last week just [00:36:50] announced, uh, another version of that, but for pets. Hmm. Um, and pets [00:36:55] play such an important role in support and companionship and love.

[00:36:59] Gerry Scullion: Like, I've got a [00:37:00] dog now and my God, like absolutely adore the dog, like, you know. Mm-hmm. Um, and you, [00:37:05] they, they provide that kind of support in the pieces. Mm-hmm. But some of the stories that I've [00:37:10] read around. The dogs and cats as well. Like whenever people are [00:37:15] dying, they're aware that something is happening.

[00:37:17] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. They, they see something is [00:37:20] happening in the room. Mm-hmm. And that really struck me because like, you know, I hadn't really given that much [00:37:25] thought. Um, and then there's all these stories of when people are passing on. That [00:37:30] they see the dog who may have passed on 10 or 15 years before Yeah.

[00:37:34] Gerry Scullion: Sitting [00:37:35] alongside them. Absolutely. And I find really, really reassuring that [00:37:40] this consistency in this, this sort of thread of these patterns, if you [00:37:45] want, that are are there for people to watch and see. It gives us some sort of [00:37:50] comfort. Mm-hmm. What's your own experience? Have you? Um, yes, [00:37:55] yes, yes to all of that.

[00:37:57] Gerry Scullion: Just, just, yes,

[00:37:58] Johanna Lundqvist: Jerry? Yes. Uh, my [00:38:00] own experience, um, I obviously didn't die 'cause you know, I'm sitting [00:38:05] right here. Yeah. Um, but I was very, very ill. Uh, last [00:38:10] summer I ended up in hospital and I had a sepsis and it was quite [00:38:15] bad. And I was in intensive care.

[00:38:16] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:38:18] Johanna Lundqvist: Because of the sepsis or because [00:38:20] of the med medication.

[00:38:21] Johanna Lundqvist: I had quite a lot of hallucinations and that's why I say [00:38:25] hallucinations is a completely different anymore. Yeah. 'cause that was scary and nasty and I, [00:38:30] I didn't dare to talk to people about it 'cause I wanted my drugs 'cause I was in so much pain. [00:38:35] Um, but anyway, but at one point, at the height [00:38:40] of the sepsis, um.

[00:38:43] Johanna Lundqvist: The entire room went [00:38:45] completely white. It was a blinding white, but it wasn't uncomfortable. And I felt a [00:38:50] weight on my chest. And I look down [00:38:55] and my three dead cats were laying on my chest, [00:39:00] you know, in order. Wow. Like this. And they were just laying [00:39:05] there. And the one who laid on my top chest, she was just putting her head.

[00:39:09] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, up [00:39:10] against my face like this, like consoling me and Puring. And they just [00:39:15] lay there. And I, I was aware that, okay, this is not an hallucination, this is something [00:39:20] else. And I was thinking,

[00:39:21] Gerry Scullion: Hmm,

[00:39:22] Johanna Lundqvist: you know, I, I think I know what this is. I think [00:39:25] this is one of those death bed things. Am I dying? I didn't, I don't know.

[00:39:28] Johanna Lundqvist: You know, it's, but I [00:39:30] didn't care. Yeah. I was aware, but I was thinking, I don't care because I want my cats [00:39:35] here. They were such a consolation. Yeah. And they just. We were beautiful. [00:39:40] And I don't know how long they were there, I guess I fell asleep from it.

[00:39:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. [00:39:45]

[00:39:45] Johanna Lundqvist: And when I woke, I woke up, you know, my sepsis had turned and I was getting [00:39:50] better, but that was at the height of my illness.

[00:39:52] Johanna Lundqvist: I, you know, so there was probably [00:39:55] the turning point basically where it could have gone any old way. A

[00:39:58] Gerry Scullion: fork in the road. Yeah. Yeah, [00:40:00] exactly. And the

[00:40:00] Johanna Lundqvist: cats came and said, you know, whatever happens, we are here. [00:40:05] That's what it felt like. And I am just thinking so beautiful. I'm just [00:40:10] thinking now that when it's my time for real.

[00:40:13] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. The cats will be there again, and I couldn't [00:40:15] be happier, you know?

[00:40:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. At least you know that that's so [00:40:20] reassuring, not only for you, but for listeners as well. Mm-hmm. That like, we've got that [00:40:25] firsthand experience. Um, Joanna, I want to give a shout out. Like, because we, when we were, we [00:40:30] were talking before, you mentioned that you are available to support people [00:40:35] who maybe have loved ones who are going through this process at the moment, and they want [00:40:40] some guidance on how to really do that.

[00:40:41] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. So that's actually a service that you provide, right?

[00:40:44] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:40:45] Yes, absolutely. I, I can be a conversation partner. Uh, [00:40:50] I can give guidance. I can't get medical advice of course, because I won't be the [00:40:55] nurse or the doctor for this person. Yeah. But I can certainly explain, uh, [00:41:00] symptoms. I can explain if quite often people say they do.[00:41:05]

[00:41:05] Johanna Lundqvist: Huh?

[00:41:06] Gerry Scullion: It's like a doula. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly

[00:41:08] Johanna Lundqvist: like a doula. It's a deaf doula. [00:41:10] They, it's even a concept. Yeah. A deaf doula. You, you just guide through the [00:41:15] process. The process. Like an extra support person. But I can also be just a conversation [00:41:20] person. Um, I mean, I, I quite often have had people who are in the [00:41:25] situation where the.

[00:41:27] Johanna Lundqvist: The relationship with the dying person is not the best. [00:41:30] Yeah. And now it's coming to a point where there's no way they're [00:41:35] gonna change it. And there's so much sadness and anxiety, and sometimes anger [00:41:40] and just having a conversation around that. Can be [00:41:45] really, really helpful and I, I can be a conversation partner like that and have done that several [00:41:50] times.

[00:41:50] Gerry Scullion: If only I'd have known you five years ago, like I was [00:41:55] estranged from my father for 25 years. Yeah. And when I got the phone call. That he was [00:42:00] dying. It happened a few times before and I was like, yeah, really? And I didn't [00:42:05] know. The only thing I, I got the phone call and it was during COVID. Kids were in the car, we were looking at [00:42:10] airplanes just landing at the airport, and I was like, no, this one feels different.[00:42:15]

[00:42:15] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. And it was like, no, this is, this is happening. But I had known one during [00:42:20] COVID, especially, like not many people had anyone. Um, but that [00:42:25] support that you provide there is invaluable. Um, so I imagine there's people out there who [00:42:30] might be going through something similar, uh, being amazing support to have something like that.[00:42:35]

[00:42:35] Gerry Scullion: Um, this topic. Is still kind of taboo in [00:42:40] lots of cultures, like talking about death. Why would you wanna talk about that? Like, I'm like, I'm fascinated by it. Mm-hmm. [00:42:45] Um, and you are available to speak about this topic? Uh, [00:42:50] absolutely at length. Like, so people who are out there who are running conferences who [00:42:55] maybe want to.

[00:42:56] Gerry Scullion: Can I have something that's a little bit in their world, left [00:43:00] field, but in my world center field, to be clear, I, I love this [00:43:05] topic. Yeah. Um, so I mean, that would be a phenomenal addition to some conferences, to [00:43:10] really, I love that shape things up. Yeah.

[00:43:11] Johanna Lundqvist: I try to, I've, I've done conferences and, and [00:43:15] what I try to do is to, I try to be as, as interactive as [00:43:20] possible.

[00:43:20] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. Uh, I, I give little tasks. I ask people to do [00:43:25] things, think things, little, little, um, um, [00:43:30] exercises, which just makes people think, um, which are [00:43:35] really, really, I, I, for instance, I quite often ask people to think about their most romantic death. [00:43:40] What is your romantic death? You know, which is a ridiculous thing, but, [00:43:45] but we all have somewhere, yeah.

[00:43:47] Johanna Lundqvist: An imagination about what is the [00:43:50] best thing. Will I lay in a field under an oak in the sunset and all my friends will be, [00:43:55] be having a, a picnic around me and I will just listen to the birds and slowly float [00:44:00] away into eternity. And that's my romantic death. That's how I wish it would be.

[00:44:04] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I most

[00:44:04] Johanna Lundqvist: likely [00:44:05] won't have it.

[00:44:05] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, but, but it's my romantic wish for how I [00:44:10] would like to die. And then when you have that, you can start thinking [00:44:15] out of this crazy nut idea what can happen. You know? [00:44:20] Mm. What can we do

[00:44:21] Gerry Scullion: about this? Absolutely. And who should I talk about words? Those two words have never come together in my [00:44:25] mind.

[00:44:25] Gerry Scullion: Romantic death. No. It got me thinking. Yeah. It really has got me thinking, [00:44:30] like, as you see in the movies, you know, people like, as you said, falling asleep under an oak [00:44:35] tree with the sound of the birds above you. Yeah. Like, you know, as you said, 75% of people die in, in [00:44:40] hospital, their eye room in hospital.

[00:44:42] Johanna Lundqvist: And most people don't lay under.

[00:44:43] Johanna Lundqvist: I mean, it might be [00:44:45] very hard to lay under that oak tree with all my friends around me, you know? But, but maybe, maybe [00:44:50] I can have birdsong on the, maybe I, maybe I can have birdsong on a [00:44:55] recorder, you know, a tape even just so I can have the birds song. You, you can start thinking about these [00:45:00] things. Yeah. I also, the way I try to make people [00:45:05] think is I have exercises, like I ask people to [00:45:10] say out loud, loud.

[00:45:12] Johanna Lundqvist: One day I will die, [00:45:15] you know? Yeah. It say it is basically turn against the next person and say, hi, my name is [00:45:20] Johanna. One day I will die. You know? Oh, okay. That is easy enough. [00:45:25] But then we turn that and the next time you say, Hey, my name is, my name is Johanna. [00:45:30] I will die on Monday.

[00:45:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:45:33] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah. And what is [00:45:35] the difference of feeling or there when you suddenly have a set date that's not very far [00:45:40] away?

[00:45:41] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah, and the interesting thing is that many people won't do that. 'cause we are [00:45:45] superstitious beings in, in all our modernity and all our science. We are still [00:45:50] scared that we will call. Call things to us by saying them out loud.

[00:45:54] Gerry Scullion: I know. [00:45:55]

[00:45:55] Johanna Lundqvist: Yeah.

[00:45:57] Gerry Scullion: Yanna, like I could speak to you and hopefully I will get to speak to you [00:46:00] at length in person someday.

[00:46:01] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm gonna put a link to your [00:46:05] website. It's death talk online. Yeah. Is that correct? Um, for people to go and check it out. [00:46:10] But you're also on linked. Um, so we'll put a link to your LinkedIn in there, in the show notes [00:46:15] for the episode as well. Are you okay if people, um, connect with you on LinkedIn and ask [00:46:20] questions?

[00:46:20] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:46:21] Johanna Lundqvist: I, I'd just be happy to, and any questions, even a talk [00:46:25] like this can cause people to need. A communication

[00:46:29] Gerry Scullion: for [00:46:30] sure.

[00:46:30] Johanna Lundqvist: And if people drop me a message, I will respond.

[00:46:33] Gerry Scullion: Brilliant. [00:46:35] Yanna, I wrap every episode and this is a CD, um, by thanking the guests for their [00:46:40] time, their energy, and their vulnerability.

[00:46:41] Gerry Scullion: Okay. 'cause we don't script questions on [00:46:45] this is a CD, um, so I go left, I go right. Johanna doesn't know which way I'm gonna go in [00:46:50] this conversation. So it takes a certain amount of vulnerability and I really appreciate you allowing me [00:46:55] to do that. Um. So thank you so much for giving me your time and space today.

[00:46:59] Johanna Lundqvist: [00:47:00] Thank you. It was, it was, um, fun, actually. Fun. [00:47:05] And uh, thank you for giving me an hour of your time.

[00:47:08] Gerry Scullion: No problem. [00:47:10] [00:47:15] Anytime.

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